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06 Apr 05 - 04:11 PM (#1453755) Subject: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: mandoleer Just a thought when the words of Spencer the Rover came to mind. If Spencer had been away for so many years that he hardly recognised his home, then where did all those prittle-prattling children come from? Any more examples of song stories that just don't add up? |
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06 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM (#1453760) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Spencer the Milkman? Don T. |
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06 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM (#1453763) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Megan L Heck laddie de ye no ken that abody in wur village wis cried Spencer :-) |
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06 Apr 05 - 07:14 PM (#1453934) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: The Fooles Troupe It's called the 'Folk Process' - many songs are thoroughly folked up. |
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06 Apr 05 - 07:16 PM (#1453939) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Celtaddict A lot of versions of "Black Velvet Band" start in "a neat little town they call Belfast" and end up warning to beware of those ladies "who roam the streets of Tralee." |
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06 Apr 05 - 07:19 PM (#1453942) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Celtaddict In a rather more recent song "Christmas in the Trenches" the singer starts out that "two years ago the war was waiting for me after school," then describes the Christmastime event, then talks about every year since then, which of course would not mean very many years at all. |
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06 Apr 05 - 07:23 PM (#1453947) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST,Art Thieme The folk process is NOT Bessy Smith's hair style!! ;-) It is the process a song goes through---moving from one person to another---changing all the while -- in order to make it a fully fledged folk song. Art |
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06 Apr 05 - 07:26 PM (#1453952) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: michaelr The greatest howler I've come across is in "The Seven Rejoices of Mary" where it is said of Jesus that "he read the bible o'er"... Cheers, Michael |
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06 Apr 05 - 07:41 PM (#1453972) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Snuffy "'Twas on Good Friday morning, all in the month of May" - that would be the year Christmas Day fell in the following January then, would it? |
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06 Apr 05 - 08:04 PM (#1453997) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Malcolm Douglas Spencer was confused (first verse) but probably hadn't been away for a very long time. His wife was surprised, but the children seem to have taken it in their stride in broadside versions. In sets from oral currency, the whole family was often amazèd, but probably only because they weren't expecting him. Black Velvet Band (originally set in London) was later localised (among other places) both to Tralee and Belfast. Both forms were popularised through commercial recordings during the 1960s, and no doubt people who learned them later on muddled them up sometimes. Inconsistency is part of the deal, really, when dealing with tradition. Sometimes it's built in, sometimes it's the result of misunderstanding. Christmas in the Trenches is a modern song, so I wouldn't consider it particularly relevant; though it does illustrate that if you don't think carefully enough when writing, it may come back to haunt you. Mind you, God's in France all Sunday. |
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06 Apr 05 - 11:43 PM (#1454094) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Celtaddict "God's in France all Sunday" Okay, I won't argue that, but I seem to have missed the song reference. Sounds like a great title though. |
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07 Apr 05 - 12:44 AM (#1454118) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST,Gerry In some versions of the two sisters ballad, the sister is pushed into the water by the seashore, yet somehow she floats down to a dam. I don't know much about practical hydrology, but this strikes me as an inconsistency. |
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07 Apr 05 - 01:42 AM (#1454145) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Manitas_at_home Jesus did read the bible (or even the Bible) but it didn't have as many books in it as the versions some of us have now! |
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07 Apr 05 - 01:47 AM (#1454146) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Peace Darn near any song that glorifies a gunslinger in the American west is likely to have its issues. |
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07 Apr 05 - 01:54 AM (#1454150) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Joe Offer My God, He Is a Rock has "the Lord God read the Bible through." I used to think that was a mistake, but I've seen the expression used in a few situations - I think it's an expression we don't understand, not a mistake. -Joe Offer- |
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07 Apr 05 - 03:05 AM (#1454168) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST,Paul Burke "the Lord God read the Bible through." Course he did, and Lolita, and Five Go To Smuggler's Top, and Mein Kampf, and the steam tables- he's om blooming niscient. |
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07 Apr 05 - 03:29 AM (#1454173) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST,neovo You have to adopt a willing suspension of disbelief and go with the flow. As to God reading the Bible - of course he did, he was proof reading. |
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07 Apr 05 - 05:55 AM (#1454225) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST,Martin Ryan "'Twas on Good Friday Morning, all in the month of May..". No it wasn't - it can't be! Ah well.. Regards |
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07 Apr 05 - 06:03 AM (#1454228) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST Em, wasn't the OLD testament written before the birth of Jesus? |
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07 Apr 05 - 08:00 AM (#1454280) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST Didn't Spencer travel through Britain and Wales, despite the latter being, um, part of the former? I like the way your mother, father and siblings can burn you at the stake, and yet your loyal footpage can ride to London to alert your love, who STILL has time to gallop to your side before you're toasted |
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07 Apr 05 - 09:47 AM (#1454360) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: The Fooles Troupe ... depends on which century the song is set in.... :-) |
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07 Apr 05 - 11:14 AM (#1454433) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Michael Perhaps Spencer was a Welsh Nationalist and refused to recognise Wales as part of Britain! Anyway it was only 'most parts of Wales'so perhaps he kept away from the Englishy bits on the border. Mike |
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07 Apr 05 - 12:27 PM (#1454497) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: EagleWing In the interest of accuracy, he only managed "Great Britain and most parts of Wales". Frank L. |
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07 Apr 05 - 01:00 PM (#1454534) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Liz the Squeak Children prattle at a variety of ages.... 9yr old Limpit does it daily. And if Spencer is anything like me, he can't remember where he was this morning, let alone where he lived a few months ago.... LTS |
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07 Apr 05 - 01:13 PM (#1454542) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Don(Wyziwyg)T I remember it as "He travelled through Old England and the most part of Wales", but I got it from listening to a singer in a folk club, so perhaps that's not the original. Don T. |
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07 Apr 05 - 01:17 PM (#1454544) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST,Seaking 'Ginny on the Moor' - where the girl doesn't even recognise her own fiance ! |
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07 Apr 05 - 10:43 PM (#1455025) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: michaelr Am I to believe the Old Testament was widely circulated in print around the year 10 AD? Cheers, Michael |
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07 Apr 05 - 10:53 PM (#1455030) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: NH Dave From what we seem to be learning from the Dead Sea Scrolls, much of the Old Testament had been put to scroll, along with parts of what became the first few books of the New Testament. Of course they weren't called by those names nor were they dated as BC or AD, such definitions being meaningless to most of the world at the time. AFAIR, the nativity story was dated "during the reign of Ceasar Augustus . . . " Dave |
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07 Apr 05 - 10:54 PM (#1455032) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST They may not have had books as we know them being 'widely circulated' but they certainly had scrolls and written text. |
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08 Apr 05 - 01:45 AM (#1455080) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Pauline L I've heard and sung Christmas in the Trenches many times, but I never noticed the inconsistency until Celtaddict pointed it out. It's still a great song, though. |
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08 Apr 05 - 04:09 AM (#1455136) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: manitas_at_work I don't know 'Ginny on the Moor' but in the broken token songs the girl doesn't recognise her lover because they were very young when betrothed. A boy back from years at wars or from the sea would have matured and grown and may even be scarred so would be hard to recognise even if the girl had had a photograph to remind her what he looked like. |
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08 Apr 05 - 06:16 AM (#1455182) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: pavane Not sure about Sandy Denny's version of Banks of the Nile - was there a Queen on the throne (The Queen she has commanded us..) when we were fighting (?Napoleon) there?. Perhaps some historian can advise. |
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08 Apr 05 - 06:37 AM (#1455192) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: GUEST,Seaking (still at work) Fair point Manitas, I get the same problem after I've been offshore for a fortnight !! |
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08 Apr 05 - 07:07 AM (#1455204) Subject: RE: Inconsistency in folk song stories From: Young Buchan Somewhere in the bowels of the School of Scottish Studies there is a version of High Germany beginning O Germany O Germany you are a dreadful isle The length all of High Germany is fifty thousand miles. Doesn't leave too much room for Lower Germany! (As someone said when the Welsh lost at rugby to Western Samoa - what will happen when we have to play ALL Samoa?) |