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28 May 05 - 07:53 AM (#1494937) Subject: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST We just placed my dad, a WWII conscripted vet who lost a brother in that war, into a nursing home on Thursday. These sorts of transitions are very tough on people, as I'm sure many of you know. When the admissions nurse saw that he was a vet, she said she was "happy to have him here just in time for Memorial Day". My dad's reply: "I never have and never will celebrate a military holiday." My father is not a pacifist. He is what he calls a "moderately conservative Republican" and an intellectual. But he is vehemently anti-militarism, largely because of his experiences of the military and WWII. It might seem ironic to some that an ardent anti-war and anti-militarism radical leftist arrived at the same intellectual place as a moderately conservative Republican WWII army vet about the role military holidays play in a nation's glorification of war propaganda, but there you have it. Which got me thinking even more about the whole military holiday thing. I personally know a whole lot of military veterans--of wars from WWII on down to today's American invasions of foreign countries. I can't name a single one of them who celebrates Memorial Day (or any other military holiday) as anything other than the 3 day weekend that kicks off the summer season. So when I logged onto the Common Dreams website today and saw this article by Norman Solomon over at the truthout.org website, and then this article by the US' first Iraq vet who refused to return to combat, I realized how important it is to remember the civilian and veteran dissenters who also make sacrifices to stop the carnage of war, and counter the war propaganda machine on these military holidays. In today's US, it isn't considered politically correct to call attention to the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the US military machine, the US war propaganda machine, and it is most certainly not politically correct to challenge the cultural myth that the US only fights "The Good War" and only has "Good Warriors" fighting "The Enemy" whomever that might currently be now. As Norman Solomon's article points out, the glorification of current and past "sacrifices" serves to lay the groundwork for the fighting of the next war on humanity by "our men and women in uniform". There may not be much I agree with my father on politically, but this subject is one of them. I will, in two weeks time, watch a lot of young kids leave their high school, their homes, their loved ones, to go into the 'poor draft' and serve their military indenture. They are being recruited extremely aggressively because "the war" is said to be "going badly". With nearly a decade of college tuition increases (double digit tuition increases at our land grant university for the past four years), financial aid cuts from a decade's worth of conservative political idealogues slashing taxes, and piss poor prospects of getting a living wage by going into a workforce that can't assimilate them, they don't have many options. Upon graduating, they won't have health insurance or any chance at vocational training if they don't go into the military. They are this generation's economic conscripts--poor cannon fodder for the red, white and blue politicians and "family values" Christian fundamentalist inquisitors, waging their holy wars. I don't ever want to see the kids I have come to know over the last four years "memorialized and remembered" for the "ultimate sacrifice". Every year, this military holiday comes just before high school graduations across the nation. That is no coincidence, in my opinion. A lot of the kids who have enlisted are having second thoughts, now that this month has, once again, seen a very high casualty incidence in Iraq. The military recruiters put a full court press on them this weekend to make sure the propaganda has the desired effect: to get them to boot camp as quickly as possible, before their loved ones and friends can talk them out of their decision, or they begin to have second thoughts about signing up. That is what this military holiday is truly about. The future conscripts of America's genocidal wars on humanity. |
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28 May 05 - 09:57 AM (#1494953) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST,Wesley S You've given us a lot to think about. Thankyou very much. My best wishes to your father. |
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28 May 05 - 10:08 AM (#1494961) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST Thankyou guest and I echo your thoughts. Your father sounds very like my own. Hope your Dad settles in. |
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28 May 05 - 10:51 AM (#1494979) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: mack/misophist Although I agree with you, I must ask if people like your father (and mine) don't deserve some recognition for what they did. Every public event has some sub-text. It's usually easy to spot. |
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28 May 05 - 11:11 AM (#1494985) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST Frankly, I don't think the official military holiday "recognition" celebrations are nearly enough recognition for what they were forced to do. Offical military holidays are all about the mawkish, maudlin, and superficial sentimentalizing of military service. How about some veterans benefits instead? A true renewal of the GI Bill. Completely affordable and accessible health care for all veterans. Transitional housing and transitional vocational counseling and job placement upon discharge. Retraining programs for disabled veterans. Thanks to those of you who have responded with best wishes for my dad. And in case anyone is wondering if there is any organized opposition to the current No Child Left Behind military recruiting practices in high schools, the answer is: you bet! |
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28 May 05 - 11:15 AM (#1494987) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST mack I guess some like to pay their respects all year round with dignity and quiet reflection. 'Holidays' isn't a word my father would associate with the horrors he witnessed. Each to their own. |
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28 May 05 - 11:33 AM (#1494997) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Charmion The guest's father did not want to do it in the first place, but accepted it as his duty and went, presumably without formal complaint. After it was over, I'll bet he just wanted to put it behind him and, most particularly, avoid the annual national hypocrisy of sentimentalizing soldiers and soldiering that breaks out on these official holidays. We see it here in Canada during the week before Remembrance Day (Veterans' Day south of the 49th parallel), when elderly folks with Royal Canadian Legion berets and walking sticks are suddenly lionized and asked to tell stories some of them would frankly rather forget. They're not fooled; a fair few of them remember how, in the years immediately after their demobilization, they had to fight like tigers all over again to get medical care for injuries that the diagnostic equipment of the time could not find and the medical techniques of the day could do little to correct. Men with neurological damage faced pension boards that accused them of lying and malingering; men with psychological injuries were told to get over it and move on. The old men suspect that society makes such a fuss over them today because there are so few of them left. If every single one of them got a nice pension to last for the rest of their lives, the national budget would hardly hiccup. |
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28 May 05 - 01:17 PM (#1495034) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: DougR To each his own I guess. DougR |
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28 May 05 - 01:25 PM (#1495044) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Ron Davies "Genocidal wars on humanity"--come on, it must be worse than that. |
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28 May 05 - 01:30 PM (#1495047) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Big Mick A very valuable thread, GUEST. War affects each of those who served in a different way. While you and I might have some differences, the one area that there is no difference is in the area of glorifying and using the personal sacrifices of our folks like your Dad for political gain. I certainly can't speak to the Vet's that you know, but I would say that many of them that I know share the same concern that I do over what this day has become. It shouldn't be a celebration of nationalism, it isn't a day to celebrate veterans and thank them for their service, it is simply a day to acknowledge the men/women, and their families, for the price they paid. I find flag waving to be wholly inappropriate. And I find those that use these days as a pedestal to peddle their lies about our intentions overseas to be reprehensible. And, GUEST, thanks. You know what for. Iam glad this thread is running too. Mick |
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28 May 05 - 01:30 PM (#1495048) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Ron Davies That prose is not purple enough. (And I am and have always been dead set against Bush's unnecessary war in Iraq.) |
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28 May 05 - 02:05 PM (#1495067) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Perhaps this is a mute point, but it is not a celebration. Memorial Day is a day of showing respect to USA veterans; and in loving memory of those who did not come home; at least that what is means to me. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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28 May 05 - 03:25 PM (#1495093) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Joe Offer I went to the annual performance of the gymnastics class of a young friend. The kids in her gymnastics school were ages 4 to 13 or so, and they performed to music. One set was a star-spangled, red-white-and-blue affair, with the music including "God Bless America," "This Land Is Your Land" and other "patriotic" songs - all played by a military-sounding band (Woody must be spinning in his grave). Our friend Hannah was in another "patriotic" set. In this one, the girls wore olive drab t-shirts and pants that looked like fatigues, and part of the performance involved marching and saluting to martial music. It all seemed like a form of indoctrination to me, preparing very young kids to see warfare as something glorious - and it made me feel very uneasy. I did my three years in the army because it was my duty. I didn't go to Vietnam, but I did my time. I shot the guns and lost part of my hearing. I took the verbal abuse from the drill sergeants. I breathed the tear gas and threw up. And I reluctantly stood for the "Star-Spangled Banner" every time I watched a movie for three years. And I hated all that, but I did it becasue I had to. Now that I'm a civilian, I don't want to see that sort of stuff. On the other hand, I agree with Dave (the ancient mariner) that Memorial Day is a day to honor and mourn those who died in war - it does not seem to me to be a celebration of warfare. I think it's completely appropriate for a nation to mourn those who died in war, and to honor those who served in war - but I think there's something wrong about exposing young kids to uniforms and marching and all that macho military malarkey. -Joe Offer- |
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28 May 05 - 03:33 PM (#1495098) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST I wonder, if in years to come, the US will be as eager to remember it's part in it's unjust war on Iraq? Kind of hard to remember murderers and torturers with respect? |
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28 May 05 - 05:28 PM (#1495144) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Once Famous Guest, you are full of crap. You can make what you want of this holiday, but I and others will realize that we live in the gratest country in the world because of great men who cared enough to fight for freedom. You are just an unappreciate American. And so's your old man. There are plenty of people who lost relatives in the first and second world war, myself included to not take the time and honor their sacrifice for others. You discount way too much. Big Mick, you talk out of two sides of your mouth. On one hand, on your Memorial Day thread, you say how you will monitor it so it doesn't become controvcersial. And then you let this cheap shot at an American holiday that does have meaning for people thrive. Total bullshit on your part. This thread will for sure go completely to hell. |
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28 May 05 - 05:43 PM (#1495155) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST,Martin's Mother That's telling those commies, son! |
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28 May 05 - 08:22 PM (#1495247) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Big Mick No, Martin, it is you who don't know what you are talking about. On several scores. First, this GUEST and I have had severe disagreements over several years. These centered around my desire to remember those I served with that didn't make it home. GUEST has very strong objections to these holidays, and their intent, and enunciates them well so there is no need for me to speak for her. In my thread, I asked that if there was to be a discussion of things other than that, that a separate thread be started. As to my views of war and warriors, those are two separate subjects. I find this current war to be an abomination. It was based on lies, thousands of Iraqui's (most of them innocent bystanders) have died, America's youth are being killed, maimed, and emotionally scarred for a cause which shifts with the day. It was founded on a lie and continues to be a lie. As to my hypocrisy about war, you can go fuck yourself. I understand it on a level I don't think you do. You strike me as a typical phoney conservative. You were a liberal while the shooting was going on, and turned conservative when the money was involved. You may exercise your right to criticize me, and I reserve the right to point out that you haven't a clue what it is really about. In short, if you can't make the distinction, I can't be bothered explaining it to you. Mick |
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29 May 05 - 03:52 PM (#1495601) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Frankham This is not the greatest country in the world. There isn't one. We have some intellectual and political freedom here but it is being jeapordized daily by business interests who are getting something out of war. Poor and uneducated young men and women are being scapegoated by military higher-ups in this administration who are immune from the atrocities they plan and committ. I n the meantime, the violence escalates and the division becomes greater. The war in Iraq is a fiasco. The press doesn't cover what's really going on over there. Today's military is becoming increasingly fascistic and although they are used to marching orders, there used to be at least a caveat by the likes of Eisenhower about the "industrial military complex", which is a descriptive term for fascism, the melding of business interests and war. Today, Memorial Day should be observed for the innocent victims on all sides of the stupid and meaningless war in Iraq. Frank Hamilton |
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29 May 05 - 04:12 PM (#1495611) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Once Famous Grank, you are an ungrateful commie/socialist. People died so you could express your opinions freely. You are a bad American, Frank. A bad American and a bad Jew, also. |
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29 May 05 - 04:22 PM (#1495617) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Don Firth Being aware of one's country's shortcomings is the first step toward correcting its abuses. Denying, or being purposefully blind to those shortcomings is actually treason of a sort, certainly to the human race in general. Frank Hamilton is a thousand times the man you are, Marty, and is more of a genuine patriot than you ever thought of being. Don Firth |
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29 May 05 - 07:23 PM (#1495711) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Alba 29 May 05 - 04:12 PM Nasty and completely out of order. Judith |
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29 May 05 - 09:07 PM (#1495785) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Once Famous I don'[t think so, Don. Frank just criticizes this country and never says anything good about it. He has also turned his back on his faith. |
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29 May 05 - 09:34 PM (#1495800) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Bobert Blessed are the peacemakers... We need a holiday fir them... Bobert |
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29 May 05 - 09:57 PM (#1495813) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Ron Davies Sometimes it seems,"Martin" that you are possibly not the best person to determine who is a "good American" or a "good Jew". If you would start thinking, it might help. |
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29 May 05 - 10:03 PM (#1495821) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Bobert Leave it alone, Ron.... Ain't about him... Reread the title of the thread.... Bobert |
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30 May 05 - 03:15 AM (#1495900) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Wilfried Schaum Unnamed GUEST's post gave me a lot to think over. Yes, I perfectly understand him and his father. I'm the orphan of an infantry officer KIA before I was born. My mother managed to rear me with a small pension the hard and poor way. (Charmion - how right you are with your comments on veterans' pensions!) While after the last horrible war the former "Heroes' Memorial Day" was renamed "People's Mourning day", the celebration in my hometown was as before: Parade in step with the firemen's band in front, fraternities in full regalia with their banners, speeches about the glory of the ultimate sacrifice and such shit: a really military performance done by civilians. In our boy scout troop of eight we were five war orphans, and so we wrote a letter to the public protesting against such celebrations and asking for an appropriate calm civilian celebration. Oh my God! When reading Martin Gibson's post here you can imagine what we had to hear, by some of our teachers and other people in the town. But we got a little support from veterans, safe or maimed, who had heard more than one shot in anger. And one day, some years after, our demands were fulfilled. Now it is what it should be: Calm mourning without glamour. Our constitution forbids any war of aggression. So I decided to to serve my time to defend our freedom just in case. Albeit having seen the battlefields of France and Flanders and the graves of a lot of neighbours killed by bombs I think this decision was the right one. We conscripts of the last decades preserved peace by our readiness in the NATO. If war is pressed on you, you have to fight, but it is a crime to march into a foreign land because of lies and economical interests. War is hell, and nobody in his senses will start one, nor think of it as a glorious affair. In my father's field chest I keep his medals, but I would rather have my father without them. I'm over 60 now, but whenever they play "The Good Comrade" at this day, I can't stop my tears for his lost youth, my mother's - and mine. |
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30 May 05 - 07:32 AM (#1495995) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Big Mick Wilfried, that is an amazing piece of writing. I am sorry for your loss, and I applaud the wisdom that it brought to you. Mick |
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30 May 05 - 08:17 AM (#1496010) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Bobert Last night I had the stangest dream I'd ever had before I dreamed that men Had all agreed To put an end To War (Pete Seeger) Yeah, Wilfried, war ordered up by folks who lie to us about the reasons for it & know nuthin' about it is as wrong as wrong can possibly be... And my thoughts are with you on this mournfull and reflective day... Bobert |
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30 May 05 - 01:21 PM (#1496150) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Don Firth Andy Rooney is the resident curmudgeon on "60 Minutes," and more often than not, his grousing and grumping is pretty funny and much to the point, because most of us tend to grouse and grump about the same things (what used to be a full pound can of coffee appears to be the same size, but in small print the label says "Net Weight 13 oz." or the dozens of unsolicited credit card applications that come in the mail every month). But in his commentary on last night's "60 Minutes," he talked about Memorial Day, and he came down pretty heavy on this one. He said some pretty thought-provoking things, one of which was There is more bravery at war than in peace, and it seems wrong that we have so often saved this virtue to use for our least noble activity—war. The goal of war is to cause death to other people.I can't recall precisely all that he said, but the general thrust was that perhaps if we were a bit braver in peacetime (i.e., between wars)—can't we, a supposedly intelligent species, find a better alternative to solving our difficulties than going to war? It's a good question. It may seem simple-minded to some people, but it does demand an answer. Don Firth |
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30 May 05 - 01:34 PM (#1496160) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Once Famous bobert, if it wasn't for the great men who fought WWII you would be eating nothing but sauerkraut. You quote Pete Seeger like he was God. He isn't. |
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30 May 05 - 01:39 PM (#1496162) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST Side issue, but to keep the record straight, it wasn't Pete Seeger who wrote "Strangest Dream," it was Ed McCurdy. |
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30 May 05 - 03:18 PM (#1496201) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Deckman I repeat what I said last December: "The day that martin gibson is banned from MC will the day that I return to MC. Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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30 May 05 - 05:50 PM (#1496306) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST Bobert, The song you quote from was written by Ed McCurdy, not Pete Seeger. Martin Gibson, Pete Seeger served in the army in WWII. |
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30 May 05 - 05:54 PM (#1496310) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Once Famous Deckman, that is reduntant. I am not banned and you just returned. What does that mean? It wasn't really you? You sent a message to that effect? Seems that you just did return. In fact, that was one of the best posts that I ever saw you do here. |
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30 May 05 - 08:29 PM (#1496394) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Bobert Thanks to both GUEST and GUEST fir straigtenin' me out on the authorship of the song... As fir the content of the song, wars are created for various reasons but they are created... They are a choice that the agressor makes. But they also a result of failed relationships between countries.. It is my opinion that if we can get folks talkin' that the wars won't be created... This is why I am so disappointed by the current administration which tends to bully and invade and leave the tsalkin' for later... Very short sighted... But good fir profits from their cmapaingn donors.... Bobert |
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30 May 05 - 08:39 PM (#1496403) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Sorcha Yes, I pretty much agree with the Old Man, but please remember that Memorial Day is also for remembering the Ordinary People who have died. Veterans Day is JUST for the military... |
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30 May 05 - 08:46 PM (#1496406) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Bobert Thanks to both GUEST and GUEST fir straigtenin' me out on the authorship of the song... As fir the content of the song, wars are created for various reasons but they are created... They are a choice that the agressor makes. But they also a result of failed relationships between countries.. It is my opinion that if we can get folks talkin' that the wars won't be created... This is why I am so disappointed by the current administration which tends to bully and invade and leave the tsalkin' for later... Very short sighted... But good fir profits from their cmapaingn donors.... Bobert |
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30 May 05 - 08:49 PM (#1496409) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Bobert Not too sure how that happened???? |
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30 May 05 - 09:41 PM (#1496426) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Once Famous I am. You're coo-cco. |
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31 May 05 - 08:49 AM (#1496645) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST Sorcha, you are in the wrong thread for remembering the dead. This is a thread for a discussion of how the US government in particular, uses military holidays propagandistically. Perhaps your lecturing others and passing out advice you don't follow yourself will be more welcome there. |
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31 May 05 - 03:06 PM (#1496775) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Donuel Thank you Guest for your well written thoughts. If we lived 700 years instead of 70 Wars would be few but Veterans day would be HUGE |
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31 May 05 - 03:14 PM (#1496784) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Donuel Memorial day chant for 2005 by DH Terminate, eliminate Murder slash and kill Dispatch, assassinate Drop a poison pill Liquidate eradicate Put them down and quell Settle a score Slaughter and gore Send them straight to hell. Decimate meet their fate Slay and take a life They shuffled off their mortal coil Far from pain and strife. Hit , slaughter Shot their sons and daughters Take em out Capizass Whack like all the others. Snuff, stuff, murder steal and rape Decapitate the head of state Lets all get really tough Deprive of life, take a ride Until they've had enough Up with ultimate sacrifice Opps they lost their life. Turn the gun on the crowd Teach'em for us all Strafe and bomb The human race With precision shock and awe. |
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31 May 05 - 03:20 PM (#1496790) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: GUEST Memorial day is NOT a military holiday - In point of fact - it is anything but. And if more people would remember that, and observe that - rather then just having a barbecuae or a three day weekend we'd all be better off. |
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31 May 05 - 05:19 PM (#1496890) Subject: RE: BS: War Propaganda & Military Holidays From: Once Famous America is a free country. We will observe if we want and we will have a BBQ if we want. We can actually do both..................if we want. |