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31 Jul 05 - 08:47 AM (#1531999) Subject: BS: Idealism and Perfectionism From: freda underhill I found this analysis of Idealism, from a link to a site about control on another thread. On this site, idealism is seen as a negative to be overcome. The site defines idealism as - - Holding on to a set of beliefs which are a rigid system of the way life is "supposed to be" or "should be". - Philosophical foundation of a lifestyle in which you find yourself always "bucking'' the system at home, school, work, or in the community. - Belief system you have adopted about how things "should be done'' which often gets challenged by the way things are in reality. - Underlying motive behind your attempt to control people so that they meet your ideal image of the way they should be, act, achieve, react, live, etc. - Block which prevents you from playing the political game of going along with the mandates of the authority which temper your beliefs and "should's" about the ways things should be. In this site, idealism seems to be an excuse, an obsession, a delusion, a bitter thing, not a positive thing. So I looked up Wikipedia on Idealism , and found a bunch of links to a lot of esoteric philosophical debates about idealism. Wikipedia also commented : "More accurately Idealism is based on the root word Ideal meaning a perfect form of and is most accurately described as a belief in perfect forms of virtue, truth, and the absolute.... In general parlance, "idealism" or "idealist" is also used to describe a person having high ideals, sometimes with the connotation that those ideals are unrealisable or at odds with "practical" life." I found a comment here that describes the trap - "IDEALISM is a product of the gifted intellect: a vision of what is possible, what could be. It is a positive quality - the driving energy that propels a gifted person forward towards achievement. Problems arise when idealism becomes perfectionism: when what could be becomes what should be - an imperative!" To me, this says idealism is a first step to achieving something - by having a vision of what can be. Perfectionism is the imperitive that stifles creativity - and limits the outcomes. But I like to think that idealists can achieve, that they are positive movers and shakers who can make something happen, rather than whingers who stifle debate and control outcomes. Can an idealist ever achieve anything? |
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31 Jul 05 - 08:50 AM (#1532002) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: gnu I dunno. |
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31 Jul 05 - 09:12 AM (#1532014) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Dave Hanson Peggy Seeger talking about Ewan MacColl said he was an idealist, and the world needs more idealists because THEY PRODUCE, they don't give in when the going gets tough. I'll second that. eric |
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31 Jul 05 - 10:41 AM (#1532041) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Amos Of course they can. All accomplishment is rooted in a sense of what an ideal situation would look like, and contrasted with what exists. The tension between those two things makes energy and motion in human affairs. Like any idea, the notion of idealism can be used to justify apathy because 'you never reach the ideal so why bother', but that is just meretricious indolence. Some artists use it as an explanation for not finishing anything because "it's not perfect yet". Seems to me that if the purpose of a work of art is to communicate something, it is good enough when it does that. A |
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31 Jul 05 - 11:42 AM (#1532068) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: CarolC I think R. Buckminster Fuller was an idealist, and I think he achieved quite a lot... The Buckminster Fuller Institute But, as they say- you can lead a horse to water... |
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31 Jul 05 - 11:49 AM (#1532074) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: CarolC I think these people are idealists as well, and I find their achievements to be quite breathtaking... The Hole-in-the-Wall Project |
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31 Jul 05 - 11:57 AM (#1532085) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: CarolC More idealists and their achievements... The Free Software Foundation |
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31 Jul 05 - 12:00 PM (#1532087) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: CarolC Oops... almost forgot these idealists and their achievements... Habitat for Humanity |
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31 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM (#1532130) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Bill D Bucky Fuller was quite an idealist...and DID achieve a lot, but boy, he was taken with himself! I was in college, studying Hegel, Wittengenstein, and Husserl, and I went to a Fuller lecture one night and went away wondering just what he had said! I guess he had stuff in his head, but he sure was not able to communicate it well...but he was almost demanding that the audience pay attention and acknowlege his genius. Some idealism goes down that path.... |
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31 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM (#1532143) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: CarolC Idealists are human just like everyone else I guess, Bill. But did Fuller go down that path because he was an idealist, or because he was a genius? It's probably easier to be a humble idealist than a humble genius. |
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31 Jul 05 - 02:22 PM (#1532153) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: akenaton Idealism lifts our spirits. Without some idealism we would sink into a trough of apathy and self- obsession. Personally I believe we have to a large extent lost any sense of idealism. Contrast our youth when we felt we could make a better, more egalitarian world, with todays youth who appear generally to care only for self advancment. The condition manifests itself in the quality of our political leaders. In Britain today we have a leader serving a third term, who has lied to parliament and the people, taken us to war illegally and under false pretenses, by his policies has brought terrorist suicide bombers to our streets and still the apathetic allow him to retain power. I hope the next generation, seeing our folly, become idealistic, especially towards the environment, as that is the road to a better future ...Ake |
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31 Jul 05 - 05:55 PM (#1532242) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: robomatic "Communism is a great theory, the only problem with it is it CAN be realized!" a witty person once said... And how right I was (with apologies to the spirit of Ephraim Kishon) This thread also reminds me of an ancient T-shirt from the remember-the-sixties set: "It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere" |
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31 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM (#1532255) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Shakey I doubt if Tony Blair reads this forum but that doesn't mean, ake, that someone can call him a liar without being challanged, So when did he lie. Don't moan about thread creep, I didn't start it. |
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31 Jul 05 - 06:39 PM (#1532263) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: freda underhill thanks Eric, Amos Carol and Ake - the answer is yes! (of course) - when idealists use their idealism positively, and work to make it happen. There is power in positive action. Later (when i get back from work) I'll add some more examples to others here - of things big & small that idealists have achieved. and look forward to seeing more that anyone else might add. freda |
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01 Aug 05 - 12:54 AM (#1532408) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Peace Antoine de Saint-Exupery: "If you want to build a ship, don't herd people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea." |
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01 Aug 05 - 01:08 AM (#1532417) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Amos Wow. That man knew something about teaching. A |
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01 Aug 05 - 01:15 AM (#1532419) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Peace Carl Schurz: Ideals are like stars: you will not succeed in touching them with your hands, but like the seafaring man on the desert of waters, you choose them as your guides, and following them you reach your destiny. |
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01 Aug 05 - 01:19 AM (#1532420) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Peace Oscar Wilde: A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world. |
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01 Aug 05 - 01:27 AM (#1532421) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Cluin Oscar Wilde: There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is to be staked out over hot coals with pickle juice poured in your eyes, while someone runs a red-hot Garden Weasel over your goolies. |
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01 Aug 05 - 02:54 AM (#1532434) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: akenaton Tomasso Campanella...16th century Catholic priest. "The people" is beast of muddy brain,who wages war for its chains, rather than be free. |
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01 Aug 05 - 02:57 AM (#1532436) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: The Shambles Can an idealist ever achieve anything? You could equally ask - what good is there in achieving anything without first having an ideal? The purely idealistic and the purely practical both have limitations. Combinations of these two extremes are probably produce the best results. |
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01 Aug 05 - 02:57 AM (#1532437) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: robomatic Lenin: "You can always buy the rope from a capitalist to hang him with." The Magic Christian: "If you want it, HERE IT IS, come and get it, but you'd better hurry 'cause it may not last." |
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01 Aug 05 - 03:27 AM (#1532443) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: akenaton Akhenaton....1350 BC. Why seekest thou revenge, O man! With what purpose is it that thou pursuest it, thinkest thou to pain thine adversary by it? Know that thou thyself feelest its greatest torments. |
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01 Aug 05 - 04:05 AM (#1532453) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: robomatic Never eat at a place named "Mom's" or play cards with a guy named "Doc" |
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01 Aug 05 - 09:24 AM (#1532583) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: freda underhill Idealism in action: an example of how a union saved Sydney's historic buildings.. The Builder's Labourers Federation in Sydney refused to demolish many historic buildings. In three years they placed green bans on 42 developments worth 5,000 million dollars, and so stopped developers razing the historic Rocks, much of Victoria Street in Kings Cross as well as Woolloomooloo. Jack Mundey was the Secretary of the NSW Branch of the BLF during the green ban period. Jack Mundey: The time, look at the time. The time was the 60s. It was the time of the Vietnam War. We were opposed to the Vietnam War. We were the first union to bring down blacks and take them round the building sites get support when they went on strike at Garingee up in the Northern Territory. We fought at the time of the referendum, we fought for the right of the disgraceful position where our indigenious people were neglected. We fought for the rights of those people for that referendum. We were involved in all of those movements which I think made the union different. ..At the time there was a notion that all development was good and the thinking segment of the population started to question this. When heritage building after heritage building was razed to the ground, when people were turfed out of their homes to make way for high rise development, when whole communities were effected there was a changing nation. And having in mind that in the 60s and 70s at one stage there was something like four to five hundred resident action groups and they were part of the community. Those resident action groups and the environmentalists and the builder's labourers linking up together were a very potent force. And so, had it just been the Builder's Labourers on their own, we could never have achieved that. But we had widespread support across the whole political spectrum. .. So, it was this dichotomy and this new dimension of people's concern for the environment that put the built environment on the agenda. Before the green bans there was a notion that the environment was the preserve of the better educated, well to do or middle upper classes and mainly about forests, or lakes or about the Barrier Reef of things like. Nature conservation. But of course the point is that we are one of the most urbanised countries on earth. So the damage that this was doing to the city, this over development was doing to the city, the progressive segment of the population were right on side with the green ban, and were really instrumental in the green ban. .. even though it was a small union we had a high level of union membership. Say 95% of all workers working as builder's labourers were in a union and also having in mind that we were the ones that did all the demolition. A building couldn't be demolished unless builder's labourers went on. Conversely, when the first footings of a new building commenced we were the ones in the bowels of the earth digging up and putting those footings in place. So we had enormous bargaining power as to the demolition of buildings and the building of buildings. .. the Builder's Labourers even now 30 years on, 25 years on, are so respected because of the legacy that they left. Jack Mundey is now the Chairman of the Historic Houses Trust of NSW http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/earth/stories/s18145.htm |
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01 Aug 05 - 01:15 PM (#1532719) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: CarolC The Magic Christian: "If you want it, HERE IT IS, come and get it, but you'd better hurry 'cause it may not last." Correction... "If you want it, HERE IT IS, come and get it, but you'd better hurry 'cause it may not last." --Paul McCartney |
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02 Aug 05 - 09:08 AM (#1533294) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: The Shambles Paul McCartney???? http://www.inlyrics.com/lyrics/B/Badfinger/9796.html |
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02 Aug 05 - 09:19 AM (#1533304) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: GUEST,Shakey I agree with Carol, I think it was macca, Badfinger were signed to apple, this song had something to do with the film magic christian. I saw then long time ago before Peter Ham topped himself. |
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02 Aug 05 - 10:12 AM (#1533331) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: CarolC Badfinger did the sound track for the movie "The Magic Christian", and they sang that song, but McCartney wrote it... Track 1:Come And Get It (Paul McCartney) This fabulous song was recorded in Studio 2, at Abbey Road Studios on July 24, 1969, during the Abbey Road Sessions. With Paul at lead vocal, it was recorded the same day as "Sun King." Unreleased commercially by The Beatles, it was given to the band Badfinger, who recorded it and which became their first hit in 1970. This song by Badfinger was also featured in the movie, "The Magic Christian," which starred Peter Sellers and Ringo Starr. http://www.iamthebeatles.com/article1045.html On the subject of The Magic Christian, I loved the book and hated the movie. And the song that goes with it. |
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02 Aug 05 - 10:48 AM (#1533352) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Peace Badfinger also did one of the greatest rock songs ever: "Baby Blue". |
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02 Aug 05 - 10:50 AM (#1533354) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: GUEST,Shakey The bit about macca reminds me, we're talking idealism yes? Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today... Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man, Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say Im a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one. John Lennon |
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02 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM (#1533406) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: The Shambles If you can't first imagine it - it is unlikely to become reality. Which is rather the way that those with no imagination or ideals - want it to be - and usually ensure that it ends-up......... |
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02 Aug 05 - 12:13 PM (#1533416) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Amos A lovely and somewhat germane quotation: BEAUTY What delights us in visible beauty is the invisible. Marie von Ebner Eschenbach A |
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02 Aug 05 - 12:27 PM (#1533424) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: GUEST,David Hannam Darkness at the break of noon Shadows even the silver spoon The handmade blade, the child's balloon Eclipses both the sun and moon To understand you know too soon There is no sense in trying. Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn Suicide remarks are torn From the fool's gold mouthpiece The hollow horn plays wasted words Proves to warn That he not busy being born Is busy dying. Temptation's page flies out the door You follow, find yourself at war Watch waterfalls of pity roar You feel to moan but unlike before You discover That you'd just be One more person crying. So don't fear if you hear A foreign sound to your ear It's alright, Maw, I'm only sighing. As some warn victory, some downfall Private reasons great or small Can be seen in the eyes of those that call To make all that should be killed to crawl While others say don't hate nothing at all Except hatred. Disillusioned words like bullets bark As human gods aim for their mark Made everything from toy guns that spark To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark It's easy to see without looking too far That not much Is really sacred. While preachers preach of evil fates Teachers teach that knowledge waits Can lead to hundred-dollar plates Goodness hides behind its gates But even the president of the United States Sometimes must have To stand naked. An' though the rules of the road have been lodged It's only people's games that you got to dodge And it's alright, Ma, I can make it. Advertising signs that con you Into thinking you're the one That can do what's never been done That can win what's never been won Meantime life outside goes on All around you. You lose yourself, you reappear You suddenly find you got nothing to fear Alone you stand with nobody near When a trembling distant voice, unclear Startles your sleeping ears to hear That somebody thinks They really found you. A question in your nerves is lit Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy Insure you not to quit To keep it in your mind and not fergit That it is not he or she or them or it That you belong to. Although the masters make the rules For the wise men and the fools I got nothing, Ma, to live up to. For them that must obey authority That they do not respect in any degree Who despise their jobs, their destinies Speak jealously of them that are free Cultivate their flowers to be Nothing more than something They invest in. While some on principles baptized To strict party platform ties Social clubs in drag disguise Outsiders they can freely criticize Tell nothing except who to idolize And then say God bless him. While one who sings with his tongue on fire Gargles in the rat race choir Bent out of shape from society's pliers Cares not to come up any higher But rather get you down in the hole That he's in. But I mean no harm nor put fault On anyone that lives in a vault But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him. Old lady judges watch people in pairs Limited in sex, they dare To push fake morals, insult and stare While money doesn't talk, it swears Obscenity, who really cares Propaganda, all is phony. While them that defend what they cannot see With a killer's pride, security It blows the minds most bitterly For them that think death's honesty Won't fall upon them naturally Life sometimes Must get lonely. My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards False gods, I scuff At pettiness which plays so rough Walk upside-down inside handcuffs Kick my legs to crash it off Say okay, I have had enough What else can you show me? And if my thought-dreams could be seen They'd probably put my head in a guillotine But it's alright, Maw, it's life, and life only. Bob Dylan |
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02 Aug 05 - 02:12 PM (#1533466) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: GUEST What delights us in visible beauty is the invisible? Marie needs to get out more |
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02 Aug 05 - 02:19 PM (#1533475) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Dave (the ancient mariner) "Every thinking man, when he thinks, realizes that the teachings of the Bible are so interwoven and entwined with our whole civic and social life that it would be literally impossible for us to figure ourselves what that life would be if these standards were removed. We would lose almost all the standards by which we now judge both public and private morals; all the standards which we, with more or less resolution, strive to raise ourselves." -- Theodore Roosevelt |
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02 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM (#1533486) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: The Shambles Is germane another word for stupid? |
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03 Aug 05 - 01:51 PM (#1534088) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: GUEST,Art Thieme Again, I'd like to suggest Alan Watts book: The Wisdom Of Insecurity Art Thieme |
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03 Aug 05 - 04:10 PM (#1534164) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: dick greenhaus A fanatic is an idealist on the wrong side. |
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03 Aug 05 - 04:16 PM (#1534169) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Amos No, but perhaps "shamble" is. It may be less than obvious but the remarkable thing about beauty whether in art or in women (my favorite sources of it) or in sunrises on wide oceans, is the not-visible component caused by the imagination interacting with the harmonious webs of light, shadow, sound and other frequencies. You may not agree with what the lady says, but making snippy remarks is not called for. A |
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03 Aug 05 - 06:38 PM (#1534358) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Jerry Rasmussen Martin Luther King, Jr. Mother Theresa and Mahatma Gandhi were certainly idealists, and they accomplished a lot. Jesus was no slouch, either. To flip the coin, does cyncicism accomplish much? Jerry |
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03 Aug 05 - 08:08 PM (#1534509) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Guy Wolff I think its the only way to live.( in optomisum in the site of adversity) By that I mean living with the magic and picturing it makes somthing good happen . We are the thoughts and deeds we live . Heven and hell are right in front of us and the great thing about free will is we get to make the choices . What we do with what we get makes our heven or hell and us memorable or not..All the best , Guy |
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04 Aug 05 - 01:05 AM (#1534609) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: dianavan Well said, Guy. Thats almost word for word what my father taught me. Thanks freda, for starting this thread. Once, in a sociology class, a student interrupted the prof. to object to a theory based on idealism. The prof replied that even if it was 'only an ideal' did that make it not worth striving for? In other words, it may not be a present reality but if you believe it to be fair and good you should strive for it because although it might not happen in your lifetime, the movement toward the ideal might be enough to improve our society. At least thats how I interpreted it. I have also had to remind parents of 'gifted' children that it is not enough to only have wonderful ideas because our society does not tolerate unproductive geniuses very well. I think ideals combined with action has been the catalyst for most of the changes in our world. Ideals also serve a purpose in personal development. Take the angry adolescent who has discovered that we live in a world with environmental catastrophe, discrimination, endangered species, famine and war. They often grieve their lost world of innocence and turn their anger toward society in general. Hopefully they will emerge with a set of ideals that will drive them forward into adulthood with the realization that they can make a difference. Ideals motivate us to be the best that we can be. |
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04 Aug 05 - 06:21 AM (#1534698) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Shakey Unfettered idealism is like anything else unfettered, it's likely to go wandering aimlessly around the countryside or, worse still, wreak havoc on Joe Public. For an example of the former examine the the political left wing in Britain in the 60s, 70s and 80s, for the latter see Hitler or AQ, some would cite the neocons. I'm all for idealist thinking, without it we're the poorer, but much better that it be firmly anchored to a large lump of pragmatism and critical debate. Dianavan wrote that " Ideals motivate us to be the best that we can be.", and I agree but the obverse of that particular coin is also true and who's to say which ideal is right. Dianavan is also correct in that ideas, even great ideas are ten a penny, they need to be followed through. And finally, sorry Amos but I'm with shambles, I think marie is talking utter drivel. |
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04 Aug 05 - 06:56 AM (#1534710) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: The Shambles You may not agree with what the lady says, but making snippy remarks is not called for. I was not addressing the lady. Or making snippy remarks. It was just an attempt at humour and clarification over your choice of words. Germane - having close kinship and appropriateness Pretentous - Intended to attract notice and impress others |
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04 Aug 05 - 06:38 PM (#1535199) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: akenaton Its quite possible to be an Idealist and a cynic.. |
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04 Aug 05 - 06:46 PM (#1535201) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Peace Idealistic cynic believes that cynicism is perfect--but only on even-numbered days. Cynical idealist believes that idealism is perfect--but only on odd-numbered days. Or maybe it's the other way 'round. |
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04 Aug 05 - 08:09 PM (#1535255) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: akenaton Thats funny Bruce! and thought provoking Take care pal. |
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18 Aug 05 - 04:53 PM (#1545130) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Wolfgang Coming back after a break it is fun to read the old threads to which one might have contributed if one was here when the thread was new. I did like reading this particular thread and I only want to add a tiny bit to Dick's remark: The word 'idealism(us)' has never been in more frequent use in Germany during the last century than during those 12 years that seemed to last 1000. The idealist leading Germany during that period really could put many of his ideas into action. Wolfgang |
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18 Aug 05 - 06:57 PM (#1545224) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: freda underhill Where have you been, Wolfgang? yes - people can be united around a positive idea or a negative idea. This happens all the time, whether its a nation or a knitting club. Yes, idealism has a dark side - as many cults, religions, and political movements have shown. i wonder, does that mean that idealism can be fanaticism, or obsession? or are these things perversions of idealism? i guess the question is - what is the ideal being worked towards? here are a couple of dictionary definitions of idealism - i·de·al·ism (-d-lzm) n. 1. The act or practice of envisioning things in an ideal form. 2. Pursuit of one's ideals. 3. Idealized treatment of a subject in literature or art. 4. Philosophy The theory that the object of external perception, in itself or as perceived, consists of ideas. ................. |
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18 Aug 05 - 07:36 PM (#1545245) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Amos Sorry, Sham, but your humour was snippy. She is saying something perfectly genuine about the nature of beauty in the moment of perception; if you don't understand it, just say so. A |
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18 Aug 05 - 07:56 PM (#1545256) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: John Hardly One can, I am told, make a good living as an idealist in Las Vegas. |
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18 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM (#1545264) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: jpk idealism-it is nothing more than chasing a pipe dream,you can still achieve things but you will never make your goal. being a cynic is not so bad,look for the good in people always,but be prepared for and ex pect the worsest. when the first happens,you are pleasntly suprized. when the later comes to pass you are not dissapointed. |
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18 Aug 05 - 08:41 PM (#1545299) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Amos That only works, IMO, until you realize the degree to which you generate your own events by belief. A |
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19 Aug 05 - 05:30 AM (#1545518) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: bill\sables (dick greenhaus here) Seems to me that the existence of the Mudcat Cafe (and DigiTrad) are pretty good examples of idealism in action. But what do I know? |
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19 Aug 05 - 05:55 AM (#1545536) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: George Papavgeris I heard something 10-15 years ago that stuck in my mind, and in many ways describes my own attitude also: "The opposite of good is not bad - it's perfect"; meaning that in always striving for perfection we sometimes bypass or ignore the 'good enough' and can lose it all for the sake of an ideal. But also that in accepting 'good enough' we can lose the impetus that might take us to perfection. What does that make me? - an idealist compromiser is what I call myself. I love open-eyed idealism; it's blind idealism that scares me. |
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19 Aug 05 - 08:57 AM (#1545582) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: GUEST,wld something to be said for pragmatists too the world isn't perfect - fair play to those people who lead political parties as well as those who snipe endlessly from the sidelines |
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19 Aug 05 - 09:09 AM (#1545591) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Amos In my opinion, idealism is not pragmatism's opponent, but its handmaiden. A |
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19 Aug 05 - 09:10 AM (#1545593) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Rapparee If you're not imbued with a vision -- of anything -- you're not really alive. Could only be finding a really good cup of coffee.... To me, an ideal is a standard you strive for. Problem is that when you reach it you can stop there or move the goalpost. If you stop, you've only achieved the minimum possible. I know of one 'catter who stopped for years and is RIGHT NOW moving forward again, going through hell to regain what was lost. The standard has been moved, the ideal is changed. Stopping means dying. |
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19 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM (#1545673) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: George Papavgeris So - Rapaire the Shark! I agree though... |
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19 Aug 05 - 11:58 AM (#1545727) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Rapparee The target is always receding.... |
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19 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM (#1545752) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: Amos From any point in time, causative and responsible action involves a vision of what might be. Right now I am wrecking a piece of my house that was very badly designed long ago by someone who has no sense of design. If you were to walk in you'd think I was a psycho vandal to see the mess. (Well, you might be right, but that is a different issue!) But I know where it is going and have a good idea what it will look like when I get there. At that point, I will assess the scene and decide where the next major departure from the ideal is and try to do something about it. That's life. Without a sense of what COULD be there is no reason to move in any direction. What are you waiting for? A |
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19 Aug 05 - 01:21 PM (#1545789) Subject: RE: BS: Idealism From: CarolC Idealism, however, can also be the ability to see perfection in what appears on the surface to be imperfect. |