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23 Aug 05 - 10:30 PM (#1548224) Subject: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict I am looking for what may be a fragment of an Australian bush poem. The family of a friend, for at least the last three generations, when drinking, raises the pint, intones "When you're stony broke and walking, and no bastard there is talking, and the billy's getting low..." then they drink. I understand Bob Bolton is trying to track down a similar quote, used as a toast, that does include the line "stony broke and walking" (though in his the tucker bag is empty). It may be these are variations/corruptions of the same bit, or two verses of a longer poem. Does this ring a bell with anyone? |
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24 Aug 05 - 09:33 PM (#1549036) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Bob Bolton G'day Celtaddict, Whereabouts did your friend's family live ... and use this toast? I'm assuming the starting point is Australia - but it's a big place! I also assume, that your friend remembers this from family gatherings ... up until what period? Sorry I can't help with any more identification of the toast's origins, but it might yet jog someone's memories. Regards, Bob |
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25 Aug 05 - 12:55 AM (#1549154) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict He will be thirty in January; he and his Uncle (late 50's? or 60's?) were using it as recently as this past weekend; definitely current in their family, judging by Auntie's "Don't get them started!" He grew up in Melbourne, still lives in suburb, and his uncle lives in one of the suburbs; his parents live nearby, and sister, so I have never asked but guess this vicinity has been his family home for some time. They quote his grandfather (Uncle's father) as using it, and a great uncle (not sure if he meant grandfather's uncle or grandfather's brother; my impression was the former). This was at his wedding reception, and I did not exactly research it, but was intrigued because it sounded vaguely familiar and also unfinished; they were joking in fact that "no one" knew the rest of it because it always stopped there. Evidently Grandfather used to start it out as if it were a full recitation, but not go back to it after the drink; they definitely thought there was a lot more of it somewhere, if only in grandfather's head. They speak of it (believe me, this seems to be a heavily ingrained family tradition) not as a toast but as "that poem Grandfather always used to recite but never get any farther than..." though it does function more as a toast now, or at least as an unsung "drinking song." Actually, in the first post, I meant to type "no bastard is there," though the scansion when they recite it makes it evident this does not mean location or absence of the b. but poetic syntax for "there is no b." |
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25 Aug 05 - 02:42 AM (#1549181) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Bob Bolton G'day Celtaddict, Thanks for that ... one more question: Did the family move to the city (from earlier 'bush' background ... or might one of those older relatives been "out on the track" at some point (such as the Great Depression era) ... ? Regards, Bob |
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25 Aug 05 - 07:13 PM (#1549820) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict I don't know but will ask, when he is home from his honeymoon. The relatives and ages seem to make 1930s-40s not unreasonable. Did you ever find any more of the one you were looking for in 2002, with the line "and the tucker bag is empty and the fish refuse to bite" in it? (I seem to recall it started "What's the use of talking when you're stony broke and walking...") |
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25 Aug 05 - 07:50 PM (#1549836) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: The Fooles Troupe It does sound like the meter and vernacular of the bush poets of the period. |
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28 Aug 05 - 02:04 PM (#1551661) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict Refresh. |
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02 Sep 05 - 09:14 AM (#1554688) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Jim Dixon Transmissions, a newsletter of The Australian Folklore Network, from 2002, contains this quote, but no more: "But what's the use of talking when you're stony broke and walking, And the tucker bag is empty and the fish refuse to bite?". |
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03 Sep 05 - 03:00 AM (#1555271) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Bob Bolton G'day Jim, I think I might have put that there ... or Prof. Graham Seal did - after I asked him about that enigmatic couplet on his Steamshuttle record of a few decades back! Regards, Bob |
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03 Sep 05 - 06:20 AM (#1555310) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: The Fooles Troupe AH! round and round in Acadmeic circles again.... Shades of Vangelding... |
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03 Sep 05 - 06:46 AM (#1555334) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: The Fooles Troupe Sorry - meant Zangelding. |
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12 Sep 05 - 04:50 PM (#1562098) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict I wouldn't know how to geld a Zan (or a Van for that matter, though I used to date one...) but am still hopeful of tracking this down. Bob Bolton, that fragment on the 2002 Folklore Network is the one I found when I googled the phrase. |
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16 Jul 07 - 09:45 PM (#2104765) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict So, it's been awhile: does this ring any bells to anyone yet? |
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17 Jul 07 - 11:51 PM (#2105609) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Jim Dixon Google Book Search found this quote: ADVICE TO A YOUNG SWAGMAN When you're stoney broke and walking An' your tucker bag is flat, It will never get you nowhere If you start to whip the cat, ... from "Duke of the Outback: The Adventures of a Shearer Named Tritton" by John Meredith Ascot Vale : Red Rooster Press, 1983. Unfortunately, since the book is still under copyright, only that brief "snippet" is viewable. However, the author (or at least collector/performer) of the poem seems to be Harold Percy Croydon "Duke" Tritton (1886-1965). |
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18 Jul 07 - 01:18 AM (#2105664) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Peace "When you're stoney broke and walking" THAT has got to be one of the best lines ever. Without doubt. |
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18 Jul 07 - 05:35 AM (#2105757) Subject: Lyr Add: ADVICE TO A YOUNG SWAGMAN (Tritton) From: Sandra in Sydney Duke Tritton was one of the early members of the Bush Music Club. ============ page 56 of John Meredith's book. (chapter name) Songs that he wrote. ("In this section 'song' is used in it's broader sense to include also the spoken ballad") ADVICE TO A YOUNG SWAGMAN by Duke Tritton When you're stoney broke and walking An' your tucker bag is flat, It will never get you nowhere If you start to whip the cat, For there ain't no time for weepin' aWhen you're on a hungry track, An' we have no use for squealers On the roads that run outback. You must keep your independence An' if a squatter snarls at you, You snarl back at him what you think he ought to do; You can query his ancestry Which will mostly start a brawl, Win or lose, it shows the squatter That you're never one to crawl. But when the grass is long and dry You will find the all polite, An' you'll get a good handout If you work your noodle right. You just flash a box of matches An' speak of the 'Wild Red Steer', He'll most likely call you 'mister', He might even shout a beer. An' if ever you are short of meat, It really is not a sin For to knock a jumbuck over, But be sure you plant the skin. For if they catch you with it, You'll surely get it hot, For the magistrate's a squatter And he'll hand you out the lot. You may be busted up and broke, Well, you are not the first To shove a cheque across the bar To satisfy your thirst. You'll have plenty other troubles, But keep them under your hat; One thing no dinkum swagman does Is whip the flamin' cat. ============= |
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18 Jul 07 - 05:41 AM (#2105764) Subject: Lyr Add: ADVICE TO A YOUNG SWAGMAN (Tritton) From: Bob Bolton G'day Jim Dixon, The full item is reproduced below. Unfortunately, the rest of the poem (not a song - despite the chapter heading) goes on with more general advice for a young bloke on survivng as a 'swagman'. That is, an itinerant worker living on rations (sometimes grudgingly) provided by the property owners - who needed a good labour force for seasonal work such as sheep-shearing, stock mustering, harvesting, etcetera. The opening lines are obviously yet another partial quote from what must have been a popular piece of "folk poetry" back in the lat 19th century! In the past, I have tended to be the copyright contact for 'Duke's copyright material - especially where it was first published in Bush Music Club journals ... as I am currently editor of our magazine and publications officer. For a while I was out of touch with Duke's descendants - but I've now made contact with the next generation, so I can refer anything that has a bit of money attached to his Grandson Don (Croydon) Tritton. ADVICE TO A YOUNG SWAGMAN Harold Percy Croydon ('Duke') Tritton When you're stoney broke and walking An' your tucker bag is flat, It will never get you nowhere If you start to whip the cat, For there aint no time for weepin' When you're on a hungry track, An' we have no use for squealers On the roads that run outback. You must keep your independence An' if a squatter snarls at you, You snarl back an' tell him What you think he ought to do; You can query his ancestry Which will mostly start a brawl, Win or lose, it shows the squatter That you're never one to crawl. But when the grass is long and dry You will find them all polite, An' you'll get a good hand out If you work your noddle right. You just flash a box of matches An' speak of the 'Wild Red Steer', He'll most likely call you 'mister', He might even shout a beer. An' if ever you are short of meat, It really is not a sin For to knock a jumbuck over, But be sure you plant the skin. For if they catch you with it, You'll surely get it hot, For the magistrates a squatter And he'll hand you out the lot. You may be busted up and broke, Well, you are not the first To shove a cheque across the bar To satisfy your thirst. You'll have plenty other troubles, But keep them under your hat; One thing no dinkum swagman does Is whip the flamin' cat. Duke of the Outback , the stories, poems and songs of Duke Tritton, by John Meredith, Red Rooster Press, Ascot Vale, (Victoria, Australia) 1983, Studies in Australian Folklore, no. 5 Duke of the Outback,: 2. Songs That He Wrote page 56 Regards, Bob |
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18 Jul 07 - 09:14 AM (#2105865) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Sandra in Sydney and there we both were typing away ... |
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18 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM (#2106087) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict Thread drift alert! What does it mean, to 'whip the cat'? It seems by context to involve whining about things one can't do anything about, but to me the phrase seems to suggest picking on someone weaker or possibly 'taking it out' on someone uninvolved with the problem. I still think Bob's fragment and mine (and I think his sounds more accurate) are bits of a bush poem older than Mr. Tritton's work. |
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18 Jul 07 - 06:20 PM (#2106265) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Rowan You've understood perfectly, Celtaddict, with your " picking on someone weaker or possibly 'taking it out' on someone uninvolved with the problem." The more common expression (in my Oz experience) is "kicking the cat". Your original explanatory post directed to Bob reminded me of another of those throwaway lines, common in Melbourne as I grew up, when things weren't going too well' "Things are crook in Tallarook!" (Tallarook is a small town north of Melbourne on the Hume Highway but now bypassed) and the phrase was often followed by the the response "And there's no work in Bourke!" Cheers, Rowan |
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18 Jul 07 - 09:42 PM (#2106398) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict Thanks, Rowan. I think I will try running 'crook in Tallarook' past my Melbourne friend. |
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05 Aug 07 - 08:41 AM (#2119601) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Bob Bolton G'day again Celtaddict (& evreyone else...), I (vaguely) recollected that Don Brian, had collected something very like the lines quotes above (02 Sept, 2005) by Jim Dixon. I asked Don, at last Friday's Beer & Cheese Night ("themed singing session") and Don recited back exactly what was printed in "Transmissions" ... so it was probably Don that fielded that particular query. I've pasted in the relevant texts fron Don's email replies to me. They don't directly help on your query - but they do indicate a body of related rhymes! The final 'poem' is a development of a "Farewell" piece that has been used to curse the hot north of Australia (Queensland and Northern Territory) as well as Tasmania's convict stations back in the 19th century Regards, Bob Don Brian's emails: Thanks Bob The version I heard was: "What's the use of talking when you're stony broke and walking and the tucker bag is empty and the fish refuse to bite" I recorded it from Clarrie Moon of Chiltern VIC in 1977 Also (recorded) from Rocky Dickerson in Broken Hill 11-8-77: You ought to see bagmen today They're jumping trains along the way They never fear if p'lice are near But if they're caught they must appear The magistrate will not relent and into some small gaol they'e sent When they come out the p'lice they shout This town's too hot, you must get out . So once again with swag on back the poor old bagman hits the track The track is long and weary now The bagman must get along some how. And from Sam Byrne Broken Hill 1977: I'm only a humble swagman looking for work in vain I'm out in all the weathers sunshine, wind and rain And when I get tired of walking I try and jump a train But what's the use of talking I'm a bagman just the same. Do you know any further the background to these Perhaps a mudcatter might Don A second email from Don Brian G'day Bob Copied from the back of the door to a room in the Laggan Hall: "A swagman committing suicide" by Matt Allen Swaggie Oct 31 1930 Farewell land of kangaroos native dogs and cockatoos fleas and ticks and bulldog ants I'm leaving you my pants. Also shirts and other rags billycan and tuckerbags So fare ye well you good old tramps never more shall I see your camps on lonely roads or in green lanes or on the hills or on the plains Farewell, things might be much better this ends the life of Kenny Ketter. Matt Allen |
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26 Aug 07 - 04:56 PM (#2134029) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict Bob, thanks so much. Do you have a suggestion for a good text of bush poetry? I gather it is a fragmented genre but has been collected at least here and there. |
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27 Aug 07 - 12:51 AM (#2134277) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Bob Bolton G'day Celtaddict, These days, there are vast numbers of specialised collections of new poetry ... and the 'traditional' favourites (Paterson, Lawson, Lindsay-Gordon ... &c, &c) have remained in print (even if often as facsimiles of earlier settings!). I think that the best starting point for someone wanting to come in from the "folk tradition' end might be one of a few collections put together in the early flush of the "Australian Folk Revival" - the 1950s/'60s. I'll rat around my bookshelves, when I get home, to come up with a few good examples. I'll also run the same question past Eddie Sampson - a poetry reciter (far more than poetry writer) who comes along to my Monday Night Music Session ... to keep poetry in our minds as poems, not just source lyrics for songs! Regards, Bob |
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27 Aug 07 - 01:41 AM (#2134291) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Rowan Greetings Celtaddict, While Bob's ratting around his bookshelves you'll find examples scattered through some of Mudcat's threads, the only one I can immediately recall has "Recitations" in the title but there are other threads on named items. I'm not sure of Mudcat's policy on archiving spoken (rather than sung or played) material in the DT and there's a bit of a backlog due to coping with a series of events but searching should reveal a few things of interest to you. Cheers, Rowan |
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27 Aug 07 - 09:50 AM (#2134440) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Bob Bolton G'day again Celtaddict, Our Monday Music Session was too eager (... or too clearly knew they needed ... ) to practise for a Bush Dance they are playing next Saturday - so I didn't get to discuss books with Eddie. Looking at my own shelves, I would suggest a few established books ... although that might mean chasing them at secondhand book shops (and that depends on just where you are). A few that come to hand are: The Penguin Book of Australian Ballads, Ed. Russell Ward, Penguin Books Ltd, first published 1964. The Penguin Book of Humorous Australian Verse, Compiled by Bill Scott, Penguin Books Australia Ltd, first published 1984. The Old Bulletin Book of Verse The best verses from The Bulletin 1880 - 1901. First published 1901 as The Bulletin Reciter .. Published (in facsimile) 1975, by Lansdowne Press, Melbourne. Australian Bush Ballads, ed. Douglas Stewart & Nancy Keesing. First published 1955, Angus & Robertson. My copy published 1971 by Lloyd O'Neil Pty. Ltd, Hawthorn, Victoria, Australia. This book is the "verse" companion to Old Bush Songs, ed. Douglas Stewart & Nancy Keesing. First published 1957, Angus & Robertson. My copy published 1976 by Angus & Robertson, Australia - in their "Australian Classics" reprint series. These give a good range of material - mostly from the late "Colonial era" (up to 1900) and the early "Federation" period (from 1901). The Penguin Book of Australian Ballads has selection from the earliest collected material up to modern authors; divided up into eight sections, by period and "authorship". Good luck looking for these ... or equivalents! Regards, Bob |
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27 Aug 07 - 04:57 PM (#2134781) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict Thank you so much! I do have the Penguin Ballads and look forward to accumulating more. An online search without any prior information is sometimes not useful as I have nothing on which to base assessments; online is not like browsing at my used booksellers' places, as they tend to give information on the state of the book itself and virtually nothing on its content, so starting with some recommendations from someone knowledgeable is a great help. |
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04 Sep 07 - 04:40 PM (#2140865) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: Celtaddict This bush poetry is really addictive! |
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06 Jan 11 - 01:16 AM (#3068256) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'stony broke and walking' (AU) From: GUEST,Ben My Father used to say "I'm stony broke and busted and I'm walking up the track" Then he'd tail off and forget the rest. He's dead now but was a very knowledgeable fellow on all things outback as he was a shearer in the 60's and 70's. |
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20 Apr 11 - 12:58 PM (#3139079) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: GUEST,jamie macqueen My Grandad has a different version he recites snatches of when drinking... " Whats the point in talking/when you're stony broke and walking/when your tucker bag is empty/and your water bag is dry......he swung an axe at the mighty blacks/what more could a bastard do/he'd been in every brothel from Bendigo to Cue..." It seems that there may be several different regional differences in this ballad. I imagine it came through an oral tradition and changed along the way. : ) |
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26 Aug 11 - 05:08 PM (#3213180) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: GUEST whats the use of talking when your stoney broke and walking and your blewcher boots are leaking and your nose bags hanging low Whats the use of staying when you have no hope of paying and the publican is calling for the law???????????????????????????????????? |
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27 Aug 11 - 12:56 PM (#3213511) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: Sandra in Sydney typo corrected in last post whats the use of talking when your stoney broke and walking and your BLUCHER boots are leaking and your nose bag's hanging low Whats the use of staying when you have no hope of paying and the publican is calling for the law???????????????????????????????????? Blucher boots - alternate name for Wellington boots |
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09 May 12 - 05:57 PM (#3348864) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: GUEST,Sharon Radliffe Fowler in Sydney My father also recites a similar poem when a few sheets to the wind, he is nearly 70 and says an old bloke from taken point told it to him " what's the use in talkin when your Stoney broke and walkin And what's the use in wishin for a feed to come from fishin And the tucker bag is empty and the fish refuse to bite" |
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11 Apr 17 - 07:15 AM (#3849988) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: GUEST what's the use of talking when you're stony broke and walking and your tucker box is empty and your horse is going lame Heard it in the Wickham (W.A.)hotel bar 1973 old bloke wouldn't tell me the rest. |
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11 Apr 17 - 09:30 AM (#3850008) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: Sandra in Sydney very interesting thread! |
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24 Nov 17 - 08:29 AM (#3890106) Subject: RE: ADD: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: GUEST,mac3 I made two more verses for this one. What's the use of talking When you're stony broke and walking And your tucker box is empty And your horse is going lame And what's the use of saying That you really can't be staying But the bloody dog is dying And I have to put him deep And what's the use of asking Then, Him for a favour That when I dig to give a hand Or turn the bloody rock to sand And to point the bloody way And I have to bloody say It's been a bloody lousy day |
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30 Apr 20 - 10:58 PM (#4049663) Subject: RE: Lyr ADD: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: GUEST,Joe burton My dad Graham Francis Burton was in the Korean war Australian infantry. After a few drinks would burst out laughing and recite. What's the use of talking when you're stoney broke and walking,and you're tuckerbag is empty and fish refuse to bite. You'd run a mile and jump a stile and eat a sunburnt cake. The little boy would look up and say "What's a sunburnt cake mister" Horse shit! Wish I knew the rest of it. Any help would be amazing. |
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02 Jan 21 - 04:21 AM (#4086119) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Advice to a Young Swagman (Duke Tritton) From: GUEST,Cliff Gilbert My next door neighbour (now 92 years old) has this version: What's the good of squawkin' When you're stony broke and walking And your tucker bag is floatin' like a flake When your billycan is leakin' And your battered boots are squeakin' That's the time you think of mother and the scones she used to bake. He said he probably learned it at school but he served with the RAAF in the Korean War and admitted he might have learned it there. |