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01 Dec 05 - 09:28 PM (#1618153) Subject: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Bobert Well, well, well... Looks as if drunk frat boy is sick and tired of folks telling hiom that he is a screw-=up so he has had his PR department put together a "35 page" brochure entitled "Plan for Victory" and unveiled it yesterday at the Naval Academy... Good choice, George... Like if there's one place on the planet it's safe to unveil a brochure that offers *not one single change of direction* in Iraq-mire, the Naval Academy is it... Yup, 35 pages of that same ol' song an' dance routine, just with glossy pics and charts that paint Iraq-mire as one big happy successs story... Oh sure, Bush said that "mistakes" had been made but, as per usual, wouldn't admit to any one specific mistake that he has made, but that's not at issue here... Like how many folks who heard his address or read is Iraq-mire brochure changed their minds about his policies in Iraq??? I didn't... I don't like "stay the course"... "Stay the course" cost us 20,000 more men in Nam under Nixon... And I don't buy the argument that if we set a time-table fir gettin' out that this will strengthen the resistence movement in Iraq... Quite the contrary... Most of the folks we are fightin' ain't Al Qaeda but Iragi nationalists who want the US outta their country... So, set 12 months as our drop dead withdrawl and train, tarin, train as many Iraqis between now and then and then it's "Good-bye and good luck"... The world community will be the judge of how well the Iraqi's settle into being accepted as a civilized nation... Out presence is no workin' for anyone... Time to wind it down inspite of the fact that the oil contracts may not go our way... Bobert |
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01 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM (#1618160) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: akenaton Right Bobert ...and just heard the latest horrorfrom Iraq Mercenaries providing security for Western cointractors are machine-gunning civilians . Latest videos show civilian vehicles being targeted and filmed by security personel. This must surely bring home to those few pro- war people left on this forum, the bankrupcy of our moral case for invasoin...Ake |
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01 Dec 05 - 10:05 PM (#1618174) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: dick greenhaus You know, if what we're looking for is a strong central Iraqui government (regardless of how they gain that strength) to suppress Muslim extremists, we could have saved a lot of time and money: That's what Sadam Hussein provided. |
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01 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM (#1618181) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Bobert Hmmmmmmmmm? Good point, Dick... Sho nuff could have and like I have pointed out, Saddam was a company-man... All ya had to do was send him a danged Christmas card and he'd be yer lap-dog forever... Problem is that both Clinton and BUsh seemed to need boogie-men, Bush more than Clinton, and Saddam fit the bill quite well fir both of them... |
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01 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM (#1618201) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Ron Davies What's interesting is that even Bush is talking about withdrawal from Iraq. That's a switch. Also you don't hear any more about the insurgency being in its "last throes". And as far as "democracy" being our legacy to Iraq, it will be worth noting if Iraqi "democracy" means any rights for minorities--in this case the Sunni minority. |
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01 Dec 05 - 11:00 PM (#1618205) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: DougR Bush has not changed his position on Iraq. He never has said the U.S. will be an occupier. When the Iraqi police and armed forces can defend the nation against the insurgents, the coilition will leave. That's always been the plan. DougR |
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01 Dec 05 - 11:02 PM (#1618208) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: GUEST,Jeff Yes...that was the plan in Vietnam too, wasn't it? |
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01 Dec 05 - 11:22 PM (#1618218) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Amos His position on Iraq has too changed, and that drastically. His first vision that got him any traction atall and about which he could not be caught lying particularly was to make a model democracy to serve the Middle East as a role-model for democracy. Now he just wants to hand off the mess to the locals as soon as he can do so with any sort of dignity, at which point he will declare victory. He originally believed, foolishly and despite wise advice to the contrary, that uncorking the highly polarized and tribal environment of Iraq and handing them democracy on a silver subcontract would be relatively straightforward as soon as Saddam fell. He had no concept of the ground truth of the region, their long-standing internecine hatreds and their cultural differences. He thought it was just a military problem, and he didn't even handle the military part of it well. Except for the turkey. A |
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01 Dec 05 - 11:36 PM (#1618223) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Bobert Another reason why American didn't deserve drunk frat boy as president... Like what did we do, Lord???.... Get this creep off us.... Pleeeeeze!!!! He's not only a moron but a dengerous moron... B~ |
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02 Dec 05 - 01:20 AM (#1618247) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo DougR: Bush has not changed his position on Iraq. He never has said the U.S. will be an occupier. LOL. You don't still take what Dubya says as the gospel truth, do ya??? Just because he's never referred to the Iraq imbroglio as an occupation doesn't mean it isn't one..... Just a FYI. So why waste time talking about what the Liar-In-Chief says? From the White House:
-- Dubya the liar, July 14, 2003 Compare and contrast. Cheers, |
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02 Dec 05 - 02:31 AM (#1618256) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: GUEST,Boab Doug R.---you have decided to remain naive? You still think they told the truth? You still think they can "win"? You still believe they have a "strategy for withdrawal"? You still expect to see columns of "legitimate" Iraqi tanks, U.S.-friendly and primed for battle? You are convinced that one day we will witness the exploits of the New Iraqi Air Force, all kitted out with the latest fighter-bombers laden with smart bombs? That the Iraqi navy will look upon "pirates" off the Horn of Africa as so much small-fry? Good----for that is one of the only two ways our "coalition" can declare "victory". And to cope with the mood of bitterness and antagonism which has intensified in the Mid East down recent years, they really WILL have to have a stock of WMDs. If the Rethuglicans see such a scenario as being to their advantage, they will supply the lot---without one little inkling of irony, or twinge of conscience. The other way to "win" is to build monster Military bases, and withdraw into those for a permanent stay. That way, they can be on hand if their new "democracy' is perceived as being threatened by mavericks outside the walls who wish to go back to being sovereign Iraqis. Of the two options, I hope --and suspect---it will be the second. It seems unlikely that the best of all situations will prevail---for that means getting the hell out of Iraq and ending all the mayhem and bloodshed stemming directly from the occupation, and allowing Iraqis to sort THEMSELVES out, and subsequently forming trade or defensive alliances with those nations and peoples with whom they can still reasonably form trusting relationships. But that, in the eyes of the Neocon hawks and their toadies, would be "defeat". And if the populations who support them think likewise, they should look for the guilt not only at Saddam, but squarely at the liars who took them into this cruel farce in the first place. |
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02 Dec 05 - 06:37 AM (#1618342) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: The Fooles Troupe I still remember the last scenes of the 'victory' in Vietnam, what with the helicopters taking people off the roof of the Embassy... |
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02 Dec 05 - 07:47 AM (#1618392) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Bobert Wasn't that about 20,000 American death's after Nixon's "plan" fir victory??? |
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02 Dec 05 - 09:09 AM (#1618461) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: kendall Did you see the news last night? According to NBC, the military has been making up "feel good" stories and passing them off as news in Iraq. Lying must be a contagious disease. |
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02 Dec 05 - 11:42 AM (#1618598) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Amos Shit flows downhill in every bureaucracy; if the C-in-C is a pathological falsifier of reality, it is obviously a successful way to conduct business. A |
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02 Dec 05 - 12:43 PM (#1618658) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Barry Finn Hey Bobert, have ya notice that speaches from military instatutions & bases & such are pecoming much more common these days. I've done construction at many of these bases in the Northeast & they're hell to get into. In some bases like Newport there are bases winth in bases. To get onto a main base means 1 kind of clearence then there is another base within that requirs a higher clearence & a different clearence for cars. No chance of protests & protesters within their boundries only outside their gates that would exclude all non cleared reporters too. Free spech & the right to gather, NOT. Barry |
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02 Dec 05 - 02:31 PM (#1618738) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Donuel http://angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushold.jpg |
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02 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM (#1618869) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson bobert, al quaida would be proud of you. You are their best friend and they love your attitude. Good work on their behalf, bobert! |
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02 Dec 05 - 06:47 PM (#1618899) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: The Fooles Troupe You would have LOVED Hitler, Staln, and Mussoline MG. |
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02 Dec 05 - 07:29 PM (#1618929) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: DougR I suppose some things never change. DougR |
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02 Dec 05 - 07:36 PM (#1618943) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Don Firth "Stay the course," isn't a plan. Well, people tell me he is doing God's Work. (Well, maybe a little on the side for Halliburton and his buddy Dick Cheney). Don Firth |
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02 Dec 05 - 07:51 PM (#1618962) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Kaleea Ah yes, the old soft shoe . . . with sand sprinkled-er, dumped on the floor instead of salt. |
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02 Dec 05 - 09:59 PM (#1619038) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Ron Davies Doug R-- "when the Iraqi police and armed forces can defend the nation" 1) What happened to all those grandiose ideas about Iraq being a shining example of democracy in the Mideast? Now it's just survival. 2) Hope you've thanked the UN today--without the UN there would have been no "Iraqi police or armed forces" and no "nation"---the civil war would have started a lot earlier. Bremer was not popular--and no good at all in keeping the various Iraqi factions from each others' throats. |
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03 Dec 05 - 07:57 AM (#1619187) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Teribus Ron Davies - 02 Dec 05 - 09:59 PM In answer to your questions: 1. Still early days yet, let's see what happens after the elections on the 15th December. Voting track record to date for ordinary Iraqi citizens openly threatened by violent reprisals from terrorist groups is as follows, 8 million voted in the Interim Government election last January, over 10 million voted in the referendum on the draft constitution, 15.12.05? My guess is that number will increase - What do you think Ron? 2. I think Ron that you shoulld go and read the UNAMI mandate. I think that you should take a good look at what the extent of UN presence has been in Iraq. You should acknowledge that MNF is a properly constituted force operating inside Iraq with the full consent and approval of both the UN and the elected Interim Iraqi Government. |
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03 Dec 05 - 10:39 AM (#1619286) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Ron Davies Teribus-- As I've said earlier, I believe that more Sunnis than expected will vote in December. However, as I've also said, that is not the main point. Far more significant will be the Sunni reaction, if, as is likely, their attempts to amend the constitution (after the election) are all rejected. Will they then support the insurgency to a greater degree? If so, Bush's plans for gradual US troop withdrawals "as the Iraqi forces become more able to handle the situation" are dead in the water. Amendments are particularly crucial since, in the constitution as it stands, many of the vital questions of governing were not dealt with--just put off. And you, dear Teribus, should acknowledge that, as I've often said before, starting back in spring 2004 in a thread entitled "Irony: Bush and the UN"--Bush very probably owes his 2004 election to the UN. Its willingness to act as an honest broker between the various Iraqi factions made possible a specifically Iraqi face on the opposition to the insurgency--and gave the lie to many predictions by Mudcatters and others of a Vietnam-style quagmire. The quagmire may yet happen--but at least Bush has been able to postpone it til after 2004--which is all he cares about anyway. |
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06 Dec 05 - 09:03 AM (#1621094) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Wolfgang I don't want to start a new thread about Bush and Iraq, so I just take the most recent mentioning both names to link to an interview of the German Magazine DER SPIEGEL with FORMER POWELL AID LAWRENCE WILKERSON: A Leaderless, Directionless Superpower ...When I left the State Department, there were over 70 deaths of people in detention, some of them being investigated, some of them covered up. ...I call it the low point in my professional career. I mean, I look back on it, and I rack my brain again. I wasn't a novice. I had been an intelligence user for years. How did we get so fooled?...There was a single word used by countless people in the government to describe the National Security Council under Dr. Rice and that is "dysfunctional."....They are not neo-cons. They are not new conservatives. They're Jacobins. Their predecessor is French Revolution leader Maximilien Robespierre. ... Wolfgang |
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06 Dec 05 - 07:29 PM (#1621565) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Amos Senator Barbara Boxer (CA) says: STATEMENT BY U.S. SENATOR BARBARA BOXER The President fails to see and confront the truth about the war in Iraq. First, he refuses to acknowledge that the Iraq war has nothing to do with the 9/11 attack on our country by al Qaeda, and it has diverted us from our appropriate response to that attack which was to go into Afghanistan and hunt Osama bin Laden. Second, he refuses to acknowledge the fact that our long term presence in Iraq is fueling the very insurgency that the President vows to end. Third, the President refuses to acknowledge that any mistakes were made and that this war was based on false pretenses. Fourth, he ignores the tremendous financial burden on our citizens, and he completely ignores the thousands of wounded that need to hear that they will not be forgotten and that they will receive the care they need. Finally, the President even refuses to acknowledge that Iraqi government officials believe that we can withdraw within a two-year time frame, and he continues to demean those members of Congress who disagree with him. The President used this speech to lash out in a very personal way against those who believe the best strategy for success is an accelerated training of Iraqi security forces and a drawdown of American troops, starting with the National Guard. Once we clearly state that we do not intend to stay in Iraq forever, the insurgency will be diminished and our brave men and women can begin to come home. The President's failure to address the concerns of the American people and the Congress is a devastating blow to everyone who hoped to hear the President articulate a clear mission and a projection of when our troops can return home. # # # A |
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07 Dec 05 - 02:58 PM (#1622115) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Bev and Jerry Bush claims that his plan for victory was written by the NSC. Well, technically, that's true but in reality it's another big lie. It was drafted by Peter Feaver, a political scientist from Duke University. Feaver polled a lot of Americans and found out that they would support the war if they thought it could be won. So, the NSC hired him to write the plan which is called The National Strategy for Victory in Iraq and contains the word "victory" in every other line. In Bush's speech, he used the word "victory" 15 times and the republican echo chamber has been using it every chance they get ever since. There's much more in this article from the New York Times. Bev and Jerry |
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07 Dec 05 - 07:16 PM (#1622288) Subject: RE: BS: Bush 'Plan for Victory' in Iraq... From: Ebbie More Opinion, Information and Facts from Henry Waxman and Russ Feingold |
