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03 Jul 06 - 03:23 AM (#1774499) Subject: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/07/03/dl0302.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/07/03/ixuknews.html The following from the above. Here is a statistic that you won't hear quoted often: more Irishmen died in British uniform during the first two days of the Somme offensive than participated in the Easter Rising. The reason it is rarely cited is that it doesn't really suit anyone. |
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03 Jul 06 - 03:46 AM (#1774507) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford They put up a memorial in Dublin, about 70 years later. |
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03 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM (#1774508) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford In the thread, The Wind That Shakes The Barley, I referred to tens of thousands of Irish men signing up (not counting the Ulstermen) and was not initially believed. |
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03 Jul 06 - 03:52 AM (#1774513) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: John MacKenzie Are they not the 'Wild Geese' referred to in the song 'The Foggy Dew'? Giok |
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03 Jul 06 - 04:02 AM (#1774519) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: gnomad I knew about the involvement, but not that statistic, interesting. Eric Bogle has written about the hostility between the two camps Click on "the lily and the poppy" (pdf) nice song i.m.o. |
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03 Jul 06 - 04:04 AM (#1774523) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Brakn John 'Giok' MacKenzie No they not the 'Wild Geese' referred to in the song 'The Foggy Dew'. |
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03 Jul 06 - 04:09 AM (#1774524) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Large Taws The Brits needed more 'cannon-fodder' in France, where they were under attack from a German offensive. Lloyd George ( British Prime Minister ) looked at Ireland and wanted conscription on the books he knew a ' sweetener ' such as 'Home Rule' after the war would assist his endeavours. The British offer of 'Home Rule' was nothing of the sort a reading of the 'small print' (ie the hidden "terms and conditions") of the ' Home Rule 'Bill exposed it for the fraudulent offer it was. Lloyd George was willing to offer only local government powers , under the British Crown , to Ireland , with only a small , if any , ' suggestative ' input into issues of law , education and finance . Westminster would still have the final word and British troops would still be on the ground . Irishmen were fooled by the British, they enlisted in answer to British lies. The youngest casualty of the First World War had not yet reached his 14th birthday when he was killed on the fields of Flanders in Southern Belgium. John Condon came from Waterford City. |
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03 Jul 06 - 04:18 AM (#1774526) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Agreed, they were fooled into joining. |
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03 Jul 06 - 04:20 AM (#1774527) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford My mistake. The tens of thousands I referred to above was of free Irishmen from the Republic who flocked to Britain to sign up in WW2. What British trick was used then? (Remember that the IRA was supporting the Nazis.) |
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03 Jul 06 - 04:36 AM (#1774531) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Walrus GUEST,Large Taws, You conveniently forget to mention that the promise of Home Rule was made in 1914, a full TWO YEARS before the Somme and under the administration of ASQUITH and two years before conscription was introduced in England, Scotland and Wales (it was NEVER introduced in Ireland). The youth of Ireland was as caught up in the early war euphoria as those of the other parts of the 'Three Kingdoms' and, while Hunger and Unemployment were traditional recruiting serjeants, (and this was as true in Yorkshire or Perth as it was in Donegal) it was the War which boosted recruitment. It was Asquith's promise of Home Rule at the end of the War which led John Redmond to offer the National Volunteers to the Government to speed victory, the offer of the NVs led Carson to offer the UVF. W |
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03 Jul 06 - 05:01 AM (#1774538) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/articles/war.htm This article gives an estimate of 210 000 Irish volunteers in WW1 and 70 000 from the Republic in WW2 |
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03 Jul 06 - 05:25 AM (#1774550) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles So many were being fooled. It is ironic that so many Irishmen were off fighting the Germans when the part played by the Germans in the Easter Rising was so instumental in both its planning and its failure. Their promised support was not as hoped and when the material support that was given was scuttled, the rising had no real hope of being anything other than yet another valiant and bloody sacrifice. |
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03 Jul 06 - 08:09 AM (#1774623) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle yes its a weird business. oscar Wilde apparently was a great supporter of the English in the Boer War - (The war my Grandad - a Dublin man fought in, as well as the first world war). Quite why Ocsar shuld have felt anything but hatred for the British establishment, after what they had done to him - I really can't work out. i think maybe these issues are more confused than zealots of either side would have us think. |
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03 Jul 06 - 09:09 AM (#1774681) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Fiolar There were 33 Irish winners of the Victoria Cross in the First World War. |
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03 Jul 06 - 09:31 AM (#1774700) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Les from Hull GUEST, Large Taws: 'Home Rule' is not the same as independence. That's why they have different names. You could say that with the re-introduction of the Scottish Parliament the Scots have 'home rule'. |
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03 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM (#1774710) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington was born in Dublin and about two thirds of his men during his Peninsular Campaign in Portugal and Spain were Irish. Nothing new about the "Fighting Irish" they make good soldiers. |
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03 Jul 06 - 09:44 AM (#1774713) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Large Taws Redmond was sold a pig in a poke. He later admitted this. |
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03 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM (#1774767) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: John MacKenzie Wild Geese G. |
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03 Jul 06 - 12:33 PM (#1774830) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Brakn John 'Giok' MacKenzie Yes they are the 'Wild Geese' referred to in the song 'The Foggy Dew'. ;-} |
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03 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM (#1774917) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Is Large Taws the Portugese player whose taws are still swollen after Rooney caressed them, so what the hell does he know about the fighting Irish |
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03 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM (#1775008) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Got a pm from a friend and member about this thread, asking me my views on the Irish in the Great War. Like many others over here there were a couple in my family killed in action. In my own town there were four battalions raised in 1914. After the events in Dublin in 1916 fewer came forward from the area. It was a complex time in Ireland and those who died and served faced great hardship. It should have been the war to end all wars as was promised. Traditions have the right to recall and honour the dead from their own areas. It was a terrible loss of life. |
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03 Jul 06 - 04:57 PM (#1775026) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Amos The Irish were also key players in the Union victory at the Battle of Bull Run and likewise key players in the Battle of the Wilderness, a gruesome mess of a fight during the American Civil War. A |
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03 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM (#1775111) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Matthew Edwards The Irish poet and Redmondite MP, Captain Tom Kettle, served in the British army on the Western Front. He had been appalled by German atrocities in Belgium in 1914, and believed sincerely that he was fighting in the cause of liberty with which England might keep faith. He was a Volunteer, and knew personally many of those involved in the Easter Rising such as Thomas MacDonagh. When he heard of Rising he predicted sadly, (and correctly), that its leaders "will go down to history as heroes and martyrs, and I will go down - if I go down at all - as a bloody British officer". In his last poem, written for his baby daughter shortly before his death on the Somme in 1916, he wrote of his own motives for fighting:- "Know that we fools, now with the foolish dead, Died not for Flag, nor King, nor Emperor, But for a dream, born in a herdsman's shed, And for the Secret Scripture of the poor." The notion that Tom Kettle, and the thousands of other Irishmen who served in Gallipoli and France, simply fought out of loyalty to the Crown is belittling to their memory. At the time it was only George Russell who recognised the equality of the sacrifices made by the fellow poets Tom Kettle and Thomas MacDonagh, but now at last we can all acknowledge that:- "High words were equalled by high fate, You paid the price. You paid the price." |
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03 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM (#1775171) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: McGrath of Harlow As for the "Wild Geese" in "The Foggy Dew" it is pretty clear that Father O'Neill when he wrote it was indeed referring to the Irish who had joined up to fight the Germans. Otherwise what could these lines have meant? It was England bade our Wild Geese go, That small nations might be free. But their lonely graves are by Suvla's waves On the fringe of the great North Sea ............ My own father saw no contradiction between fighting for the Irish Republic in the Civil War and fighting in the British Army in World War II. When in a civil court case one time many years later a magistrate expressed surprise at an IRA veteran having being willing to put on a British uniform, he said "I always was one to stand up for the rights of small nations. Even my own." And I'd be pretty sure he had that song in his mind when he said that. |
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03 Jul 06 - 10:26 PM (#1775201) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Mick Quite right about the contributions of the Irish in the US Civil War. They were some of the greatest units. Some of the Union units were the 28th Massachussets Irish Volunteer Infantry, the New York Fighting 69th, and the Irish Dragoons. Maybe one of the most highly regarded by both Grant and Lee was the Louisiana 6th, otherwise known as the Fighting Tigers of Ireland. Our own Jed Marum chronicled their prowess in his song "Fighting Tigers of Ireland" on his "Streets of Fall River" CD, as well as a later collection for which this fine song was the title track. It is available on his website. Bloody Lane, at the Battle of Antietam, was one of the places where the Irish suffered incredibly, and demonstrated their reknowned fighting ability. 5500 men on both sides died in that gully, with the largest percentage as Irish. Ironically, the Irish Brigades on both sides of the conflict often ended up fighting each other. Of the Irish in the US Civil War, the Irish Brigade Association has the following to say on their website: During the American Civil War, six grandsons of George McCook, a United Irishmen, were Union Generals and another six were field officers. Irish-born Meagher, Corcoran and Shields were Union Generals and for the Confederacy, Corkman Patrick Cleburne was one of their finest commanders. More that 150,000 Irishmen served in the US army, most notably with the Irish Brigade, and some 50,000 more worn the grey of the Confederacy. Fifty three percent of the 600 Nuns who served as nurses during the War were born in Ireland, and no doubt many more were Irish-American. They were truly, as poet Emily Lawless said: "Fighters in every clime --- Every cause but our own." At Gettysburg, there is one of the most beautiful memorials to the 69th that has ever been erected. It shows a huge celtic cross with a wolfhound lying at its base. All the best, Mick |
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04 Jul 06 - 03:02 AM (#1775317) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles No place for the faint hearted Off to the war to end all wars But nothing's solved, when wars are started They only sow the seeds of more Those that kept the home fires burning Watch as dreams all fall to dust But the lesson's there for learning Take care where, you place your trust |
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04 Jul 06 - 05:27 AM (#1775375) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford I would never suggest that the Irish volunteers fought out of loyalty to the Crown. But then, neither did the British volunteers. They were inspired to volunteer because they believed in the justice of the cause. Keith. |
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04 Jul 06 - 06:19 AM (#1775395) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford What I find so interesting, and what our Republican contributors find so hard to deal with, is that The British cause was so vastly more popular in Ireland than was the Republican cause. |
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04 Jul 06 - 06:25 AM (#1775401) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Dáithí You're right Keith. My father, a Mayo man, joined th British army to fight the Nazis. He knew what would happen to Ireland if Hitler won - even if the Irish government didn't! (A story I heard years ago - two old fella's discussing the war in 1940 over a pint in a Dublin pub: "We should be staying out of this, Pat - it's England's war not ours!" "Easy to say Mick - but what would you do if Hitler's navy sailed up the Liffey tomorrow?" "Don't be ridiculous - Mr Churchill would never allow that!" ) No simple answers, hey? Slán - Dáithí |
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04 Jul 06 - 07:05 AM (#1775428) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Thanks Daithi, Your father was a brave and wise man. As you say, wiser than his government, but also a million miles from the position of the IRA. Here is what Brian Hanley, a professor of Irish History at National University of Ireland said about them. Those who see the IRA through rose tinted glass prepare to be shocked. Especially on the subject of Jew Cleansing. Following the fall of France, Russell urged that the German high command make use of the IRA to strike at British forces in Northern Ireland as part of a general attack on Britain. His plans were accepted and incorporated into Operation Sealion (the plan for the invasion of Britain), a mark of the 'respect and esteem' in which Russell was held by the German military leadership. During August Russell was to return to Ireland to oversee the implementation of these plans, but on his journey home by U-boat he became ill and died. His body was buried at sea with full German naval honours. The above information comes not from one of Russell's many critics, eager to paint him as a collaborator with the Nazis, but from the republican newspaper The United Irishman of October 1951. The article was published to coincide with the unveiling of a monument to Russell in Dublin's Fairview Park and concluded that he was a 'worthy successor to Tone and Casement'. Quite apart from that questionable assessment, what is notable about the article is the utter lack of embarrassment that the leader of the IRA was a guest of the Nazis during a period in which the German armies invaded and forcibly occupied five sovereign nations. However, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if 'German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people'. The public was assured that Germany desired neither 'territory nor . . . economic penetration' in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the 'reconstruction' of a 'free and progressive Europe'. The Third Reich was also praised as the 'energising force' of European politics and the 'guardian' of national freedom. In response to critics such as George Bernard Shaw, who had drawn attention to Hitler's anti-Catholic policies, the IRA countered that both 'Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini' proved their lack of bias by helping to establish the 'Catholic government' of Franco in Spain. The IRA's statements drew angry responses from Irish Freedom, published by the Connolly Association, and Irish Workers Weekly, published by the Communist Party of Ireland, who criticised the IRA for inviting 'German soldiers to come and devastate the country they talk of freeing'. These papers also noted how the IRA and their 'strange bedfellow General O'Duffy' were lauding as 'liberators' powers that held 'Abyssinia, Austria, Albania and Czechoslovakia' in subjection. War News, the IRA's main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe. |
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04 Jul 06 - 07:16 AM (#1775441) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles What I find so interesting, and what our Republican contributors find so hard to deal with, is that The British cause was so vastly more popular in Ireland than was the Republican cause. Probaly true up and until the (cynical) decision to go ahead with the doomed Easter Rising in the full knowledge that this sacrifice and its inevitably brutal supression by the British would change this. |
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04 Jul 06 - 07:29 AM (#1775453) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford But then came WW2 |
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04 Jul 06 - 07:43 AM (#1775464) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Mayo Mick What I find so intresting, and this cannot be denied, is that in all of the recent polls in the Irish papers each and everyone had a majority in favour of Irish unity. The Irish Republic has one of the highest standards of living in the world, I was told for many years by my northern friends that the southern politicans hadn`t the brains to run a country, I haven`t been hearing of late, the same old cry from the Ulster Unionists. The Irish Republic to-day can stand rock solid on it`s own, unlike Northern Ireland which continues to be more interested in disturbing their neighbours by marching behind secterian bands, the bread and butter issuses are seldom if ever mentioned, if they had thrown of the shackles of and joined their fellow Irish in the Republic they would have been much better off. |
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04 Jul 06 - 08:26 AM (#1775497) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Les from Hull Some interesting articles here about involvement by Irishmen on both sides of the Spanish Civil War |
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04 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM (#1775503) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Careful Mick the wannabe weekend soldiers are on guard duty today ! |
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04 Jul 06 - 09:54 AM (#1775577) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle Dear Keith I don't think you will achieve very much with this thread. I suspect the people you are aiming it at, know all the things you are saying, but it is not the emphasis they want to give history. At some point we have to stop having arguments, never mind about winning them. My own father fought with an Irish regiment in the 2nd world war and my grandad was irish, and fought in the Boer War and the First world war. They had a shitty time of it in all three times of unpleasantness. i believe the Irish side of my family were involved in IRA activity in the 30's - but we lost contact. I really don't think raking up all these old quarrels will help anybody. And if I'm seen as a fool or bufoon by both sides, so be it. Why have this shit on the menu for the next generation. And if you don't want it for them, why do you keep warming it over? |
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04 Jul 06 - 10:25 AM (#1775607) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Without a doubt,that is the most logical post I have read on Mudcat in a long time. Well said weelittledrummer. Pity that it may just go over his head. |
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04 Jul 06 - 10:56 AM (#1775631) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Point taken. Not my thread though. I just joined it. |
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04 Jul 06 - 11:46 AM (#1775701) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney I agree with all Al has said here Keith. You may well have your reasons for what appears as a public hate for Republicans. I myself have many historic issues with the British, many from personal experience with soldiers. We have had more than our fair share of verbal battles over the last year. On reflection I see no gain for either of us. Between us both we have put of many members from joining threads as we locked horns publicly. I am not asking for a date here Keith, just pointing out faults that have been highlighted here and accepting some of the responsibilty myself. It's twelve months since the PIRA ended it's campaign. I can't keep saying sorry forever. Let's both reflect on our differing viewpoints. |
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04 Jul 06 - 01:40 PM (#1775821) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: McGrath of Harlow And it's as well to remember that there were soldiers who fought in British uniforms overseas in the Great War who then came home and fought for the Irish Republic againast the British. For example the renowned guerrilla leader Tom Barry. Trying to draw some hard and fast division between those who fought overseas and those who fought at home is artificial, and is likely to distort the true reality of the times. Troubled times. |
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04 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM (#1776008) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST My father was a Galway man, a middle child amongst twelve children. The eldest son got the farm, the girls married local farmers and the boys scattered to England, Australia, Canada and US. My father wanting to be close enough to Galway ( it was always 'home' until the day he died) came to London. He was treated like something the cat dragged in. It was the time of NO BLACKS NO IRISH. Renting a room in a 'should have been condemned' house in Brixton was the best on offer. Walking up Clapham High Street he saw the recruiting office and went in without thinking much about it. It was the promise of a steady wage that he could send 'home' that was the lure. That was 1939. He wasn't fighting for the British, he was fighting for his family. Six years later he had seen six years of active service. He was a bazookah carrier, as were many of his Irish and other foreign comrades. He remembers the running joke was they sent the non Brits to the front as they were the cannon fodder. Disposable paddies. He sent money home from every pay packet. The farm was running on empty and every penny counted. His elderly parents and eldest brother tried to hold things together, all the time thinking their boys had made it good in far flung corners of the world because the cash kept coming home. The truth was those in the far flung corners were facing hardships and bigotry that they daren't mention in the letters home. They all had their own personal battles to fight. My fathers was in a uniform that didn't puff his chest out with pride. He came back to UK in '45 and never mentioned it again. It was a job. |
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04 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM (#1776019) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Dave the Gnome And the point, Guest..? |
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04 Jul 06 - 06:06 PM (#1776026) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Guest, A back person in London in 39 would be a great rarity and an occasion. There were no signs. The British army did not have bazookas. It is sad that you people need to resort to dishonesty. |
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04 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM (#1776030) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Oh, and also there was unlimited well paid work in wartime britain with so many men and women serving against hitler. No Irishman, immune from conscription, would need to join up for " a job" |
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04 Jul 06 - 06:18 PM (#1776035) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford divis sweeney, i do not know what you want from me. You know that I have no hatred for republicans, only for the paramilitaries of both sides. Neither of us need to apologise for holding and defending different points of view, only for using dishonesty as a tactic. I am not clear for what you are saying sorry. |
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04 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM (#1776048) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Teribus GUEST 04 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM I can honestly say that I have never heard or read such complete and utter crap in my life before. Please go away and do some reading, do some research, actually find out just what the hell it is that you are talking about - You will find out that it bears no relation whatsoever to what you have posted - but then again I have a slight hunch that truth and honesty do not figure large in your agenda. |
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04 Jul 06 - 07:34 PM (#1776096) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle thread drift there used to be sweets called bazukah, or was it bazookas. Sherbert sort of things. I wonder if they still do them. So there wasn't a sign, and he carried something else not a bazooka. That's the way the guy feels about us English. Get used to it. Live with it. he's not going to change his mind cos you have definitive proof of something or other. Theres a sort of impasse of minds about these threads which we should be able to solve amongst ourselves at least. Cos we're relatively smart. |
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04 Jul 06 - 07:48 PM (#1776112) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney I prefer to stay away now adays from these threads Al as I attract personal attacks on myself, yes remember Bazooka gum with the small comics inside them. You can get them on ebay. I have a great collection of 1960's and 70's sweets. Yes even Spangles ! Aztec was my favourite |
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04 Jul 06 - 08:12 PM (#1776139) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: McGrath of Harlow So what's with "you people", Keith? ........................ Spangles - now they were great little sweets. And a lovely name for them as well. |
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04 Jul 06 - 09:12 PM (#1776178) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,sorfingers Terribus, it's time folks like yourself get a grip, or as they say in blighty 'cop-on mate' You haven' the slightest idea or notion of what the b****dy hell you are on about. Good on yer Galway! |
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04 Jul 06 - 09:30 PM (#1776186) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Little Hawk Amos, you are quite right about the prowess of the fighting Irish in the American Civil War...but... The Union lost both Bull Run and Second Bull Run (largely because of Stonewall Jackson's superb leadership). |
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05 Jul 06 - 12:18 AM (#1776269) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Amos Little Hawk: Thanks, I stand corrected, all bedewed with embarassment! A |
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05 Jul 06 - 12:23 AM (#1776276) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: number 6 I'd have to say that General George B. McClellan had a lot to do with the Union's failure in the (first) Bull Run. sIx |
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05 Jul 06 - 01:42 AM (#1776317) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Mcgrath, i used that expression once before. I mean those people who create not just a legitimate Guest name, but a whole fake persona to make some point or other. However, I see how it looks and will drop it. keith. |
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05 Jul 06 - 03:09 AM (#1776335) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle Thread drift In America, was McClellan's name mud before the Ken Burns series about the Civil War? Last year year I was talking to an American acquaintance on the net with the name of McClellan, and I asked him if he were related to the little general. The guy was absolutely outraged at the suggestion. i think we need a statute of limitations for him. After all as Burns said, Lee and Sherman faced up to the arithmetic and got on with the job, but you can't really blame someone for not being able to face the facts when they are so horrifying. |
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05 Jul 06 - 03:27 AM (#1776346) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford WLD, you said "That's the way the guy feels about us English. Get used to it. Live with it. he's not going to change his mind cos you have definitive proof of something or other." You have previously suggested that I should withdraw from these discussions. Will it really help unite people if we allow one interest group to push its dogma without challenge, and even ignore lies intended to gain influence? You also said"I suspect the people you are aiming it at, know all the things you are saying, but it is not the emphasis they want to give history." but remember that divis sweeney was incredulous when first told of the level of support for Britain in WW2 I never start these threads. |
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05 Jul 06 - 03:28 AM (#1776347) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles but you can't really blame someone for not being able to face the facts when they are so horrifying. If you don't, it only makes it more likely that in future there will be yet more horrifying facts. The point of starting this thread was to inform our forum of facts they may not be aware of and to alert them to the sacrifice of fine people who died too young. Folk may not be awre of these facts - mainly because the facts do not really suit any side......... Perhaps blame is not the right word. But it is about taking responsibility to try to ensure that such things are not repeated. |
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05 Jul 06 - 03:53 AM (#1776364) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Subject: BS: British Rule.The vote From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Nov 02 - 02:54 PM Non Uk folks may not have heard of this. 300 years ago Gibralta was made by force of arms to become a British colony. The catholic population were subjugated to the crown. Remind you of anywhere else? Recently, some moves have been made to partially restore sovereignty to Spain. The Gibraltarians, unhappy with the progress, organised a referendum. The result was, out of a 90% turn out, 99% voted to remain under sole British rule. See. Some people like us. Keith. |
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05 Jul 06 - 04:16 AM (#1776381) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Mayo Mick I love this site in particular those people who seem to be always blabbing away without considering the points that are made, for instance, my suggestion that Ireland all 32 counties would have prospered without the `benevolent` hand of England, well boys whats your verdict. I might call back later and see if any of the know-alls give an honest reply. |
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05 Jul 06 - 04:19 AM (#1776384) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford For what it is worth Mick, my own honest reply is yes, you are probably right. |
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05 Jul 06 - 08:13 AM (#1776537) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Mayo Mick Keith I salute your honesty. |
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05 Jul 06 - 10:22 AM (#1776641) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle No Keith I would never suggest anybody bugger off. That would be arrogant. I just think the starting points in these political threads, are probably emotional allegiances. Its not a lack of knowledge or cerebration that makes us what we are. take Heydrich, probably a better fiddle player than anybody on mudcat - all the tags of civilisation, probably better table manners - but he was a Nazi. Lets face it there are unpalatable truths about all our lives, probably about all our beliefs, almost certainly about all our relationships. Whacking someone over the head with an unpalatable or distessing fact isn't going to persuade them one iota. As for our good friend DS. And he is genuinely terrific guy in many ways. do you really think that someone who chooses a name like Divis Sweeney isn't aware of the fact that there are differing points of view when it comes to Irish politics. Do you really think that someone living Ireland wouldn't know that a lot of people fought for England in the war - and moreover that their motivations were pretty unselfish. look at all the shit things our country has stood for - that doesn't make us bad people. we perhaps accept some degree of guilt. DS's emotional allegiances are to another cause - that's all I'm saying. I bet there's bugger all about the IRA's bad points that haven't occurred to him. Reiterating them to him won't make him join the Young Conservatives and take out a subscription to Majesty. |
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05 Jul 06 - 11:08 AM (#1776671) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Yet again Al excellent post. I offered the olive branch yesterday after your post, even though your post didn't refer to me, thought it was a good time to help resolve his issues. See I got another smack this morning in one of his posts. Well despite all that I was called and wrongly blamed for I was happy to put it behind us. As a pm I received last night said, Igore, don't appologize for answering or asking questions that's what this forum is all about, nothing you will never say will be enough to please him. Thanks Al |
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05 Jul 06 - 11:21 AM (#1776683) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford I know that you are right about Divis S, but you must know that there are many people who visit this forum with little or no objective knowledge of some of these issues, but who would like to believe that the issues are clear cut, right and wrong, white hats and black hats. Divis and his Guest army are constantly coming on with a completely one sided viepoint. All I ever do is to give the alternative view. And doesn't that wind them up?! Remember when he first arrived he said that he disliked our music, but he was here to speak up for the IRA. Well that is fine but I will not give him a free ride. |
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05 Jul 06 - 11:24 AM (#1776689) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Read my post again sweeney. There is no smack there, just a polite request for clarification. Keith. |
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05 Jul 06 - 12:04 PM (#1776740) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Well there you have it, his reply to reason. Sorry Keith I don't have a GUEST army. Yet another another unwarranted slur upon me. So what do you mean you "won't give me a free ride" Keith. Is that your way of saying that for example you blame someone on robbing a bank without evidence and I ask for proof, you will go off On tangent about some event which happened in 1972 ? A lost cause in life here Al. Best to give him a wide berth and just be sympathic and understanding. |
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05 Jul 06 - 02:32 PM (#1776858) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle Keith in all friendship I say this, if there ever was a guy who was going to inform and educate the world on these issues - it needs to be someone with a lighter touch than yourself - a less confrontational style, shall we say. You're about as good at convincing people as I am at seducing women. |
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05 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM (#1776902) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford I expect you are right WLD. I can never resist challenging some of the stuff they come out with, but I will make a conscious effort to be less confrontational. Sweeney, perhaps you are too sensitive and delicate for the rough and tumble of this forum. Keith. |
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05 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM (#1776944) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney No Keith, just allergic to individuals who ATTEMPT to make slurs against me without proof and have to depend on searching the net to find selective Journalistic articles objectively and colourfully written to suit their cause. As for me, it's no problem I lived it. As for your remarks about endurance and sensativity. That's no problem to me, probably best defined as professonal against territorial ! |
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05 Jul 06 - 04:03 PM (#1776963) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford No, You won't get me to break my resolution so quickly. No confrontation. Sweeney, the only piece by I journalist I have used was a film revue. The other two were by historians, one from the National University of Ireland. No offence intended. Also, I regret to say that I could not be expected to provide proof of who robbed a bank across a sea and 500 miles away. Sorry. All I could reasonably do was ask the question, and discuss the evidence. Keith. |
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05 Jul 06 - 04:16 PM (#1776976) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney There was no evidence ! Just remarks made by two police forces who have both been discredited in their history, which you decided to repeat. The only notes from that robbery that were found were in a police social club. That's right you said they were placed there. |
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05 Jul 06 - 04:29 PM (#1776995) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Yes Sweeney, you are quite correct. That was what we discussed. I'm sorry that it still makes you angry after all this time. Nearly a year ago? Keith. |
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05 Jul 06 - 04:45 PM (#1777017) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Just how many times are you going to stick your chin out DS ? Forget about him, everyone else has. He should been booted off the site for what he said about you. |
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05 Jul 06 - 05:01 PM (#1777040) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Anger ? Not at all Keith just a good memory, no need to do research. Always glad to point out your errors of pre-judgement. |
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05 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM (#1777051) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Fair play to you Sweeney. I am shutting down now. Good night, keith. |
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05 Jul 06 - 05:12 PM (#1777052) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Night Keith. Sleep well, it's hard to in this heat. Seamus |
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05 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM (#1777099) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle night John Boy.... |
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05 Jul 06 - 07:38 PM (#1777160) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Keith fan So we have established that Irish Republicanism is based-upon a very irrational anti-British hatred and a contempt for our even handed glorious history . So what is there to talk about? It is impossible to try and comprimise with fundamentally irrational people. That means that NI will have to stay part of the United Kingdom for many, many years to come! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK KEITH |
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05 Jul 06 - 07:40 PM (#1777161) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Keith fan Sorry also meant to add it was the Sinn Fein/IRA lot who started the terrorism in Ireland. NI only exists today because of their actions 90 years ago and since that time the two parts of Ireland have grown ever futher apart. I mean, what point was there in the Irish Free State becoming a Republic? What good did that achieve? All it did was to drive an even greate wedge than existed before between North and South! |
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05 Jul 06 - 07:42 PM (#1777162) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Keith fan The U.V.F. will sort it out ! |
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06 Jul 06 - 01:30 AM (#1777305) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford you have misjudged my position. I am not part if the NI sectarian divide. I regard the paramilitaries, including UVF, as being the problem, not the answer. |
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06 Jul 06 - 12:00 PM (#1777418) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Keith, You are wrong the UVF were a force for good in N Ireland we only shot the odd R Catholic sure they were only scum, cleared the air getting rid of them. The Republic of Ireland is still only a banana state, we are living like lords in godd old Northern Ireland, I know you will keepb responding with the truth, I am sure you agree that all of the fenian scum are only manure. |
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06 Jul 06 - 02:03 PM (#1777511) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle Nobody should be allowed to call himself a fan Keith - until he's proved himself worthy, and bought you a drink. Then he can call himself anything - a friend for life, a fan, member of the family, a one night stand.....anything. As this person seems keen on the protestant cause, I think he should prove his committment by buying you a bottle of Jamesons. Brendan Behan used to call it 'the protestant whisky'. However it can be acceptable in non-denominational, and multi-faith settings. |
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06 Jul 06 - 04:37 PM (#1777644) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Used to be Bushmills and Powers Al when I was working in a bar ! Bushmills north coast county Antrim and John Powers "Three Swallows" was the Catholic choice. Three Swallows were birds, not swallowing it, if you get the drift ! Right I'll get my coat. |
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06 Jul 06 - 05:47 PM (#1777714) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford I do enjoy a Bushmills, but only when it is on special offer. They put the silly little square bottles in big cardboard tubes to make them look good on the shelf. I doubt I will get many from my fan. (I got nothing from Charlotte either but I was content with her nice words.) I visited the distillery once . Place called Ballymony. They claim it is the oldest anywhere. A few years ago an Irish American politician poured a load down the drain because they did not employ many Catholics. I think that it is just not a very mixed area. I also visited Jameson's in Dublin. very interesting but they don't actually make it there now. Gnome Dave reckons we would all get on fine if we met up for a drink. Maybe. Or maybe we would all wake up in A and E. Not too hot for you tonight Sweeney I think. (No offence) Keith. |
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06 Jul 06 - 05:58 PM (#1777718) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Bit cooler tonight here Keith, last night was hot, weather cooling down a bit now over here. Think we would all get on well Keith around the table. I don't drink myself,went off it few years back while on long term Morphine, didn't miss it, so stayed off it. Think it would be my singing voice that would clear the table. Maybe some day we will get that drink, as long as you don't pick on me. |
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06 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM (#1777734) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Paul O'Brien Senoir members of the security forces in the North allowed a climate to develop in which loyalist subversives believed they could attack Catholic targets "with impunity", The RUC may have kept information from gardaí investigating a bombing in order to hide security force collusion in attacks. British Prime Minister Tony Blair was called upon last night to order the RUC's successor, the PSNI, to cooperate fully with Oireachtas hearings that will be held on the issue later this year. The findings were contained in an interim report of the commission investigating the bombing of Kay's Tavern in Dundalk on December 19, 1975, in which two people were killed. Later that same night, a gun and bomb attack was carried out at Donnelly's Bar in Silverbridge, Co Armagh, killing three more people. In his report published yesterday, former Supreme Court judge Henry Barron — the sole member of the commission — said the Dundalk bombing was carried out by loyalists, most probably associated with the mid-Ulster UVF. These loyalists were using the farm of an RUC reserve member, James Mitchell, as their centre of operations, although Mr Justice Barron said he accepted the bomb did not originate from the farm, located in Glennane, Co Armagh. However, he believed the Dundalk and Silverbridge bombings were coordinated by members of the "Glennane group", and therefore "members of that group must at least have known in advance of the plan to attack Dundalk". The judge said allegations of collusion were "impossible to prove or disprove". However, he could say that: nThe Glennane group contained members of the RUC and the British Army's Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), "some of whom probably knew of the plan to attack Dundalk". nSenior members of the security forces "allowed a climate to develop in which loyalist subversives could believe that they could attack with impunity". nSome of those suspected of the bombings, such as well-known loyalists Robin Jackson and brothers James Nelson Young and Joseph Steward Young, had relationships with British intelligence and/or RUC special branch officers. While the commission did not have firm evidence, Mr Justice Barron said he suspected the RUC kept crucial intelligence from the gardaí investigating the Dundalk attack in order to "limit information relating to security forces collusion in terrorist activity from reaching the public domain". The judge also said that, while forensic evidence was inconclusive, the nature of the explosives used suggested a possible link between the Dundalk attack and the bombings of Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 and Castleblayney in 1976. An Oireachtas sub-committee will begin hearings on Mr Justice Barron's report in September, and issue its own report by mid-November. But families of the victims again expressed disappointment last night that no public inquiry would be held. Sinn Féin said the Taoiseach needed to hold a special summit with Mr Blair to discuss exclusively the issue of collusion. |
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07 Jul 06 - 03:37 AM (#1777963) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle If you get the proof. I'm not really sure what it will prove. As that Spycatcher book suggests, the security agencies of England were (and almost certainly still are) well outside of the control and unfriendly towards a democratically elected Labour government. Cleaning the Augean stables of the the security agencies in England -well - how would you know it was done. you couldn't have a Watergate in England, we are a much too closed and secret society. I think this should be a separate thread - unless it has something to do with the pleasure some people derive from keeping to keep the 'fighting Irish' fighting. |
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07 Jul 06 - 10:39 AM (#1778249) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Colin Pontzpass You Republicans really do not know what to be at.....you are so childish, You are aware that book is rubbish. Stick to NI and politics....or can you not hold your ground??? All you do is slag off Protestantism and portray Republicans as heroes and the only victims. You are like a stuck record. Hold your ground Keith NO SURRENDER |
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10 Jul 06 - 05:52 PM (#1780600) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST By the way Keith, I personally probably saved a good chunk of Ireland's economy back in the late 1980s. I convinced John MacMichael, then supposed commander of the UDA, not to send a two man motor cycle team down to Newgrange to machine gun American tourists on a bus. He had the idea that they'd stop the bus, line them up, machine gun them and paint "See Ireland and Die" on the side of the bus above the bodies. It would destroy the Irish tourist economy. I told him that if he thought he hated the Crown security forces, he'd really love the FBI and CIA if he pissed us off. That would guarantee millions into the PIRA treasury from the USA. He looked at me and said "Well, perhaps right you are then". About 6 weeks later MacMichael was blown to bits delivering a Christmas turkey by the Provos (who had some help from dissadent UDA men). Some however, put it about that it was the CIA. For God and Ulster Keith, For God and Ulster remember that. |
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10 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM (#1780627) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Mick GUEST,Colin Pontzpass, you show that you are ignorant and full of shit. It is the Republican politicians that are fighting to institute a government in the North of Ireland despite repeated provocation. It is Paisley and the Unionists that continue to shortstop all efforts at a representative government. But not to fear. You lot have now even got most English folks and politicians looking for a way to cut you loose. It is just a matter of time. So rant on, boyo, but these are the rants of a man who knows the end is near. The people of the North of Ireland have made it clear. They want a political solution. The Republicans have renounced the gun, and all you can do is rave on about the gun. Mick |
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11 Jul 06 - 03:15 AM (#1780799) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Colin Pontzpass Read recently in a Scottish newspaper that Father Reid would have enjoyed giving the last rights to those soldiers murdered at an IRA funeral because he see it as the final victory over two dying Protestants who can't tell him where to go. Secondly, he would have said that to the TV cameras anyway, to make him seem non sectarian and full of equality. Do any of you realise how much money was wasted on the Bloody Sunday enquiry ? There is much talk still going on about paratroopers shooting innocent Catholics in the back...were these the same Catholics that were involved in throwing blast bombs at the soldiers on Bloody Sunday....this being the case, its a pity the British Commanding Officer that day did not properly open up and slaughter all the rioters. I think they showed great restraint faced with a crowd trying to kill them. Michael Stones endeavoured to kill the IRA team giving the guard of honour at the funerals of the neutralised terrorists from Gibralter.....two soldiers were seized by a Reopublican mob and stripped, tortured by the crowd, before being impaled on steel security fencing. Was this a cowardly act or can you possibly twist things so much that you claim this was a brave effort by Republicans. You were the ones who begged Britain to send soldiers here in the first place. You are the reason for the British military being here. It was only when Republicans saw the possibility of brilliant propaganda for the world, that they turned their backs on the army and started killing them. I find the whole process very strange,You invite the army here and then spend 40 years trying to get rid of them again. You spend the Queens tender and yet state you hate it. You hate the British government, yet your politicians are up to their necks in it. You really are quite a funny race of people. The British have conquered and held more ground than any other nation with the exception of the Romans. It is quite ridiculous. The British government have you and have always had you totally pre-empted and infiltrated. They have you exactly where THEY want you. You are a bunch of headers if you think you can win back Ulster. NO SURENDER |
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11 Jul 06 - 05:03 AM (#1780833) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle You know that Silence of the Lambs film, where they have underground cells for lunatics..... |
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12 Jul 06 - 03:16 AM (#1781575) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles Here is the article. Here is a statistic that you won't hear quoted often: more Irishmen died in British uniform during the first two days of the Somme offensive than participated in the Easter Rising. The reason it is rarely cited is that it doesn't really suit anyone. The Republic of Ireland, like every country, has a foundation myth. The image of a people rising as one against their old oppressors doesn't fit terribly well with the fact that, in 1914, the Irish Volunteers enlisted almost en masse to fight for the Crown. Meanwhile, Northern Irish politicians, keen to portray the republic as alien, tend to remember the Somme as an exclusively Ulster affair. It is true that some of the bravest deeds of the whole war were done by the 36th (Ulster) Division, whose soldiers won four Victoria Crosses at the Somme. But Ulstermen were a minority of the 140,000 volunteers who enlisted in Irish regiments - not counting the many Irish units raised in Great Britain, such as the 1st/8th (Irish) Kings Liverpool and the Tyneside (Irish) Battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers. It was precisely this rallying of Irish patriots to the British cause that catalysed the 1916 rising. Republican leaders could see that war against a common foe would weld the two islands together, and needed to act at once. It worked: the British authorities dealt so brutally with the rebels that Irish opinion swung decisively behind the separatists. Only now, 90 years later, has Dublin officially honoured the volunteers who had thought, by their sacrifices on Britain's behalf, to win the right to constitutional autonomy. The ceremony marks the final regularisation of relations between two nations commingled in their blood, culture and outlook. "God save Ireland!" called an MP when John Redmond, the Nationalist leader, urged the Volunteers to fight for Britain. "God save England, too!" replied Redmond. |
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12 Jul 06 - 03:51 AM (#1781585) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle Never mind about the Irish being a bit late honouring these men. The English didn't exactly shower honours on them, if and when they were lucky enough to return. |
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12 Jul 06 - 04:23 AM (#1781598) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles It is not too late for all those who have been betrayed - to be honoured by us all now. I suggest the best way to honour them - is to finally stop fighting. And to ensure that there are none in the future to be honoured or forgotten. |
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12 Jul 06 - 04:25 AM (#1781599) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Every town and village found the money in those hard times to erect a memorial. The Senotaph in Whitehall was completed around 1920. Nation wide sevices of remembrance have been held every year since. But not in the Republic. |
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12 Jul 06 - 05:37 AM (#1781634) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney We do honour our dead each year. I always attend the services on Easter Sunday without fail. Also the annual event at Bodenstown. |
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12 Jul 06 - 05:38 AM (#1781635) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle The cenotaphs were for the dead, the money would have been better spent on on the survivors and the widows. |
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12 Jul 06 - 05:49 AM (#1781639) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford I would agree with that WLD, but at least the sacrifice of the dead was commemorated, and as Shambles said it was about 90 years late in the Republic. Sweeney, we know that the rising is comemorated. |
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12 Jul 06 - 06:18 AM (#1781657) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney You did not clearly define this. I only remember the dead of my nation. |
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12 Jul 06 - 07:24 AM (#1781688) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Al Whittle well you work it out keith. How do you reckon a war memorial to the the American dead would go down in Iraq at the present. What you are suggesting is that the Irish should have funded a memorial to british army members, whilst the black and tans were still about their merry work. It was never going to happen. |
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12 Jul 06 - 07:33 AM (#1781696) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford The war touched about every family in Ireland. I doubt that the ordinary people would have objected to a memorial. Most would have welcomed it. It was just the politicians. |
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12 Jul 06 - 07:43 AM (#1781704) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney My family suffered losts in the great Irish double cross war, that's what many remember. Promises to get them into the war and the double cross on both sides. "Most would have welcomed it" Again we see the difference of someone on the ground here and someone elsewhere guessing. |
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12 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM (#1781717) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Neither of us was on the ground then Sweeney. You are on the ground now and should know that there was general approval for the memorial in Dublin. |
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12 Jul 06 - 08:11 AM (#1781729) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Like any conflict now out of living memory, people tend to read "the official memoirs". When you read what school children over here get to read regarding the events in British published text books. As the subject is now on the school curriculum. Fortunately local schools are glad to avail of my knowledge of Irish history. Always willing to pass on local accounts of those that were there and their views on both both wars. My contribution to society. |
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12 Jul 06 - 08:26 AM (#1781734) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Those children are lucky to get a balanced view of events from you sweeney. Can you give any examples of mistakes in the books? |
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12 Jul 06 - 08:44 AM (#1781746) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Where did I say "mistakes in books " ? Any of the books I ever saw in schools gave a cut and dry view, king and country and the like. Yes I also feel it's good for the kids to get my balanced viewpoint. We must see that local knowledge and history are brought into the subject. Always willing to help, ah that's just me I suppose. |
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12 Jul 06 - 08:47 AM (#1781749) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Your Minister Of Education would be proud of you. Have you seen Marty recently? |
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12 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM (#1781751) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Mick You, of course, are referring to the DULY ELECTED Minister of Education, Martin McGuinness? The same Martin McGuinness who has been trying very hard in the face of Loyalist provocation, to pursue political solutions to the problems? Just wondering....... |
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12 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM (#1781777) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney Yes I agree with you. I try to do a good job. He's fine, met him in An Chúirt Hotel in Gaoth Dobhair a few weeks ago. He's heading for Nice in a few weeks. I was there a few months back. Lucky man living the millionaire lifestyle, then again he is one ! |
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12 Jul 06 - 10:42 AM (#1781804) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Taffy Jesus, Littleweedrummer, all this talk about fighting for England etcera! Don't you know a lot of people thought this country was called Britain with a British parliament? England is not a nation state and never was after 1707. It's no wonder us Welsh and the Scots are sick of your imperialist and blind assumption that England was the country that 'we' fought for. The last war was against dictatorship and imperialism. Get grip on history. |
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12 Jul 06 - 10:47 AM (#1781808) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Divis Sweeney British parliament sits in London. British ministers, mostly English making the rule of law. Oath taken to a English Queen. Yes see your point here Taffy. |
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12 Jul 06 - 10:49 AM (#1781810) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Big Mick A very important lesson for the Irish in America, Taffy. In fact, for all Yanks. |
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12 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM (#1781838) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Actually, most of our ministers are Scottish! |
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12 Jul 06 - 12:42 PM (#1781881) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Heard on radio today, announcement of acceptance of a gay Orange lodge to form in Belfast has been rejected. It was to be allowed up until today. They called the act un christianly. Bet the old school are turning in their graves ! |
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12 Jul 06 - 12:57 PM (#1781898) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Les from Hull Out 'beloved' Prime Minister is Scottish. I'm not sure why the Queen is English - she comes from a long line of Germans, but wasn't her mam mainly Scottish? |
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12 Jul 06 - 02:21 PM (#1781959) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,Taffy Her mam was born and raised in England. She had a sister who was mentally ill but was locked away up in Scotland. The royal family has never been English: Danish, French, Tudor (Welsh), Stewart (Scottish), German up to the present day. They only changed their name to Windsor during the first world war as the Kaiser was a cousin and an embarrassment. Mountbatten is just Battenberg anglicised. |
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12 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM (#1781985) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST So good German blood in them all, even old mountbatty, and him running about for all those years swinging his medals ! Should be on the British who helped Hitler thread ! |
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12 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM (#1781998) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Except that he earned the medals fighting against Hitler! |
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12 Jul 06 - 06:25 PM (#1782123) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles And what happened to him? Perhaps it is time for us all to forget and to move on? |
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13 Jul 06 - 03:36 AM (#1782411) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford It may have been a rhetorical question, but this is what happened to him. |
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13 Jul 06 - 04:10 AM (#1782430) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Shambles, hope your not asking Keith to move on ? That would be impossible ! |
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13 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM (#1782445) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford It is OK for others to raise these subjects, but if I respond or comment on them, then I must be stuck in the past? |
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13 Jul 06 - 04:56 AM (#1782450) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles The Seeds Of More All around the tears were falling As they waved young men goodbye For brave, they hear their country calling For the cause prepared to die Soon, they'll return home to 'Blighty' For they're sure to turn the tide With the help of God almighty Who they're told is on their side No place for the faint hearted Off to the war to end all wars But nothing's solved, when wars are started They only sow the seeds of more Back to a home that's fit for heroes Never to go to war again But for the ruling families, in their death throes The world will never be the same For the Empire and it's dominions For it's the whole world they're to save But was it worth the lives of millions To ensure Britannia, rules the waves? No place for the faint hearted Off to the war to end all wars But nothing's solved, when wars are started They only sow the seeds of more Those that kept the home fires burning Watch as dreams all fall to dust But the lesson's there for learning Take care where, you place your trust A trigger pulled in Sarajevo Loaded at the treaty of Versailles Now fires another salvo Do another fifty million die? No place for the faint hearted Off to the war to end all wars But nothing's solved, when wars are started They only sow the seeds of more Roger Gall 1994 |
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13 Jul 06 - 05:46 AM (#1782464) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST The Mountbattens owned Classiebawn Castle and it's sprawling estate in County Silgo. He was married to Edwina Ashley a Decendent of the notorious Palmerson family who came to Silgo from England. The Mountbattens, like the Ashleys, were absentees. Their visits created no stir among villagers, who were well used to visitors of all types. When the Mountbattens were in residence they insisted on flying the Union Jack from the roof of the house. "Why shouldn't we fly it, it is our property" the lady of the house told a local newspaper ! The Boy Scouts who often camped in the woods on castle grounds flew the tricolor over their camp. "Lady Mountbatten saw the tricolor and complained to them that it shouldn't be flown on their property" It had to come down. Given the scale of the conflict a few miles down the road in Northern Ireland, it was almost inevitable that this grandson of Queen Victoria, retired Admiral of the Fleet, one time Commander of Allied Forces in Southeast Asia, last Viceroy of India, First Sea Lord, and Earl of Burma would be a prime target. Mountbatten's estate manager, Patrick O'Grady, raised questions with the Gardai about the Earl's safety. Mountbatten himself scorned a security presence, saying that he "was used to giving orders, not taking them, leave me alone" Who might have wished to harm Mountbatten? In addition to the IRA, he was not favored by such bodies as "The League of Empire Loyalists." Who hated his views on partition and the fact he rented property to the Jesuits." Many felt he used a young local boy called Paul Maxwell aged 16 as a shield. He steered the boat for him and Mountbatten felt safe because he had this child on board. Sadly he was killed in the explosion. Locals still feel anger about this. The mists of time close and leave no trace of those bloody event of 25 years ago. It's a pity you can't too Keith. |
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13 Jul 06 - 05:52 AM (#1782471) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST As keith said, he did not bring it up. |
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13 Jul 06 - 05:56 AM (#1782472) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Ah, hello. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:36 AM It may have been a rhetorical question, but this is what happened to him. |
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13 Jul 06 - 06:21 AM (#1782486) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles It may have been a rhetorical question, It was. |
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13 Jul 06 - 06:25 AM (#1782487) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford Correct. Notice I used the pronoun "him" That is because others had already brought Mountbatten into the discussion by name. Keep watching me though. I may be just waiting my chance. |
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13 Jul 06 - 06:38 AM (#1782492) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST Chance for what exactly ? |
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13 Jul 06 - 08:32 AM (#1782563) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST 'I WILL WAIT MY CHANCE' When winter snows are falling through a quiet sky, I'll wait my chance. when in our darkest hour I'll still be here, for each day I wait my chance. Further along life's road I stand in a timeless world just beyond your sight, and still I'll wait my chance. I will never go away you know or leave you all alone. For some fine day I will return and then, I'll take my chance. |
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13 Jul 06 - 08:51 AM (#1782576) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford I like that, Guest. |
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22 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM (#1789856) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,William Frazer Having been told about this site I cannot start to imagine how so many republicans mass together on one site under a hidden site name that is nothing more than a mouthpiece for republican murders. I have worked all my adult life to bring peace and justice to the decent people of Ulster. Clearly you have on idea of what the republicans did in Ulster. If you want to read the truth about events over the past 30 years visit our site at www.victims.org.uk and read our stories for a change. We are known as F.A.I.R. Please view and sign our guestbook on your visit. Thank you William Frazer |
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23 Jul 06 - 10:57 AM (#1790684) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: The Shambles Bumbling Englishman. A dream - Sung to the tune of a Rambling Irishman There was a bumbling Englishman, Ambition in him burning. He'd seen all those 'Riverdancing' shows, And he became determined. He bought him a fiddle of great renown, And it cost him lots of 'fivers'. He vowed he play that fiddle too, Just like Eileen Ivers. He went and sold his guitar, Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy. Eileen could do no wrong in his eyes, A star that would not tarnish. He coated his fiddle in 'NITROMORS', To get off all that varnish. He painted that poor fiddle blue, To imitate his hero. His lust and ambition you could not fault, But his taste and talent was zero. He went and sold his guitar, Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy. When he started scraping away, People left the area. He was quickly left all on his own, Just like he had Malaria. There was one tune, he was determined to play, It was poor old 'Fanny Power'. If she could have heard it the way he played, She'd have prayed for her final hour. He went and sold his guitar, Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy. Andy said if he carried on, He'd take that fiddle and burn it . So he thought he would cross the Irish Sea, What better place to learn it? Found himself lost in the North, Without much rhyme nor reason. Looking for a place to learn his tune, In the middle of the marching season. He went and sold his guitar, Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy. When he came to a barricade, They'd let him go no further. Did not notice the stony glares, Intent on bloody murder. He sat down to play his tune, And he didn't need to say it. A young lad took his whistle out, And showed him how to play it. He went and sold his guitar, Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy. An old man came from the other side, He could not stand his scratching. He stepped up smart and took his bow, And now the notes were matching. A flute joined in and started a reel And then the dancing started. He soon forgot his violin, For his dancing was whole-hearted. He went and sold his guitar, Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy. So many people played that day, They'd forgotten why they came there. Thanks to that bumbling Englishman, It never was the same there. They thought it was a good idea, To send him where there was trouble. For as soon as he started to play his tune, They'd all leave at the double. He went and sold his guitar, Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy. The moral of this tale is clear, That when you've nearly lost it. The very best ones to sort it out, Are the very ones that caused it. And where is the hero of our tale, Who's not been heard of latterly. When he's not peace-making for the U.N. He's understudy for Michael Flatley. He went and sold his guitar, Sold his guitar, sold it to his big brother Andy. Roger Gall 1999. |
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23 Jul 06 - 12:56 PM (#1790748) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST,JTT There's a lot of silly sneering on this thread. A couple of small points: The Irishmen and Irishwomen who volunteered to fight in World War II were not necessarily fighting "for Britain" - they were resisting another imperial power. Ireland has held a commemoration of all Irish people who have died fighting in wars - our own for the right to have an independent republic, and other wars, including the Spanish Civil War, the Great War, World War II, the Boer War, the 16th- and 17th- and 18th- and 19th-century wars all across Europe, the American wars, etc, etc - every July in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham, Dublin, once a British barracks, before that a Viking burial ground, since that an art gallery. There are also commemorations in the Lutyens Garden of Remembrance not far away in Inchicore (a beautiful, serene garden built to commemorate the dead of the War to End All Wars (hah!)) and in the German cemetery in Glendalough. Rather than fighting about the rights and wrongs of earlier wars, would we not be better off trying to find out how to make better ways of negotiating settlements? |
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23 Jul 06 - 01:02 PM (#1790755) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: GUEST irish people drink, then they fight, if they fight sober, it is because they are fighting for the drink |
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23 Jul 06 - 01:38 PM (#1790787) Subject: RE: BS: The Fighting Irish From: Keith A of Hertford JTT Both of your small points have been discussed at length. I acknowledged that the irish volunteers of WW2 were not fighting for Britain, but for the British cause against Hitler. The significance for me,(why I brought it up) was that IRA was supporting Hitler and those volunteers showed the low level of support for IRA. The Memorial Park in Dublin has been mentioned. The discussion was about 80 years being too long a wait for it. Your final point no one would argue with. |