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31 Jul 06 - 09:47 AM (#1797641) Subject: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage My refrigerator is 4.5 years old, a side by side. The freezer is fine but I find this morning that the refrigerator side is not very cool. It was in the setting in the middle of the range and I have to be careful usually that my eggs don't freeze. The light is on. Any tricks for diagnosing this? Turn it off and on again? Unplug? I've tried adjusting the temperature cooler and will wait a while to try it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that won't do the trick. This is a Kenmore Coldspot. Don't see a model number beyond that. SRS (I've given this a general title since other appliances on the fritz might appreciate being mentioned here also. And now I'm going to get my camping cooler and buy some bags of ice.). |
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31 Jul 06 - 09:49 AM (#1797643) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: MMario it could be the heat. If you can set a fan so that the air ciruclates over the heat exchange coils yo may find great improvement. |
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31 Jul 06 - 09:51 AM (#1797648) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage That was quick! I'll try it. (Sorry about your wallet) |
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31 Jul 06 - 09:53 AM (#1797650) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: MMario well - it could be something completly different. |
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31 Jul 06 - 10:23 AM (#1797684) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage When you said that about the fan I realized that air flow might be the problem--and I got out the vacuum. I'm embarrassed to say that the compressor area looked like it had a cat-fur coat. I hope this takes care of it. I'll wait a little while and see if it is cooler in there. SRS |
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31 Jul 06 - 10:30 AM (#1797694) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: bobad I think that the refrigerator side is cooled via a passage from the freezer side - you may want to check that it is clear ie. not blocked by mold or some other nastiness growing in there. |
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31 Jul 06 - 11:02 AM (#1797724) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage I found those passages--there is no air getting through at all and they're not blocked. The freezer is fine, the fridge is warm. If a fan is out, might there be a fuse box of some sort to check, do you think? |
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31 Jul 06 - 11:18 AM (#1797740) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: John J It's possible there's a fuse to check. It's more likely the thermostat has failed. A quick check (not infallible) is to rotate the thermostat control and listen very carefully for a 'click'. If you do hear this it means that it is at least trying to switch the compressor. If you don't hear a click then the compressor isn't being switched. This click may be very quiet, but not neccessarily. Different models have different thermostats whic have different clicks. Depending on your results, check to see if there's volts at the compressor (get someone who knows a bit about playing with mains voltages). The compressor may well be quite literally a black metal box with wires and a pipe or two leading to it. If you get volts and you can't hear the compressor making a sort of whiring buzzy sort of noise then it may be knackered. Check to see if the compressor is very warm. If the compressor is goosed it's probably worth checking out a replacement fridge. I wouldn't have though compressor replacement was economic, unlike thermostat replacement which is a doddle. And cheap. Another possible cause is the refrigerant gas has leaked out. The hole needs to be found, repaired, then the whole thing recharged. I hope this helps you. Good luck. John |
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31 Jul 06 - 11:31 AM (#1797751) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Dave the Gnome What I found realy whacky was that we had to apply some heat to our spare fridge/freezer for the freezer to work properly. It is in an unheated outbuilding and when the temperature dropped during the winter things began to defrost. We were recommended to put a little frost protection type heater in and bingo - works fine. Apparanly when the outside temp was too low the freezer thinks it has nothing to do so it goes on strike! Cheers DtG |
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31 Jul 06 - 11:34 AM (#1797753) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Richard Bridge Has it two compressors or one? |
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31 Jul 06 - 01:50 PM (#1797909) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage Don't know. It's only four and a half years old and the controls are electronic, it has buttons, not a dial. I noticed it was getting pretty cold in the fridge a couple of weeks back, so I rearranged things for better air flow (to stop freezing eggs). That worked. There's nothing happening, no sound when I open the door like it is blowing in cold air. The freezer works perfectly and it is still making ice. Repair guy will come by Thursday and it is $55 to come diagnose it, repair is extra. I could pay them $219 a year so they wouldn't charge me the diagnostic fee. Why can't they just send someone out who will repair it and charge you for the work they do and stop with the nonsense pricing schemes? SRS |
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31 Jul 06 - 01:58 PM (#1797922) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: artbrooks Is the repair guy from Sears? If not, call them...they are usually pretty good with stuff that has their brand name. |
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31 Jul 06 - 02:10 PM (#1797940) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: bobad Since we're talking about busted appliances, does anyone, by chance, own a Jenn-Air convection wall oven model W-188-C (the C is, I believe for Canada, so yours may not have it). Mine now needs a fourth thermostat, the last one I purchased lasted just a little over a year, which was the warranty period then, it is now three months. At $200 a pop this is getting expensive and I can't afford the price of a new oven. I'm thinking that if tis is a common problem we can maybe band together a la Alice's Restaurant Masacree and start a movement. |
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31 Jul 06 - 02:35 PM (#1797975) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: GUEST,Old Guy Clean the coils under and behind it. Get one of those long duster things that look like a fuzzy bottle brush. They will pass between things to get the dust out when you can't blow it out with an air hose. Their could be some frost build up in the air passages. You have to take all the food out, unplug it and leave the doors open for say 4 hours. |
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31 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM (#1797993) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Barry Finn Our GE fridge just did the same thing, the freezer's working ok but the fridge wasn't staying cold, only slightly cool & I had to throw out most of the food this morning. We had to go out & buy a new one last night. Rather than repair it we figured on a new on, this one we got from my mother-in-law 12 or 13 yrs ago & she had it at least a couple yrs before she moved into a place that had a real good one. Good luk on a fix. I usually go to Seaars, they do take good care to fix their large appliances. With the kids being teenagers we did need a larger fridge too. Barry |
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31 Jul 06 - 04:04 PM (#1798074) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Rapparee Regarding repairing or replacing a refrigerator, the Consumer Reports guidelines are: Repair or replace? When to pull the plug on your old fridge Simple do-it-yourself repairs such as replacing a refrigerator or freezer gasket nearly always make sense. Typically, you'll also find a troubleshooting section for more serious problems in owners' manuals and on many manufacturers' Web sites. Should you pay for a repair or buy a new model? The answer depends mostly on the age of the refrigerator, its cost, and the cost of the repair. Here are some guidelines from our in-house experts: When repairs make sense. Your fridge is under warranty or less than four years old (three years for top-freezers). Those under warranty may require a factory-authorized technician; readers have found them on a par with independent repairers. When repairs might make sense. Your refrigerator is out of warranty and is between four and seven years old. Readers paid between $100 and $200 for repairs. But you might want a new model even at this stage, given today's quieter models and added features. Better energy efficiency is another plus: Energy Star models built in the past year are about 40 percent more efficient than conventional models built before 2001 and 50 percent more efficient than those built before 1993. When it pays to replace. The repair costs more than half the price of a comparable new refrigerator. Our data also show that it doesn't pay to fix a less-expensive top-freezer refrigerator six or more years old or a bottom-freezer or side-by-side eight or more years old. Thanks to better recycling programs, less than 10 percent of your old refrigerator is likely to end up in a landfill. Check www.GreenerChoices.org for the nearest recycling program. |
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31 Jul 06 - 11:20 PM (#1798399) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage I'll have to research the fridge--I don't have the manual, I bought this as a floor model at a Sears that was closing. It hadn't been out of the box long, but I didn't get all of the goodies with it. What I did get was a $1650 fridge for $1100. I'll try the unplugging bit. It is a frost-free, all of that, and the back is pretty well sealed up. Someone told me to use the shop vac and blow out the vents on the back, and I do have one of the "big bottle brush" looking brushes to try also. Tomorrow, when it's light, I'll give this all a try. Thanks! Can't help with the Jenn Air thermostat, but this seems a good place to air those kinds of questions. I think Bobert ran a thread about buying a new stove a few years back and polled people about preferences. Maybe there was some Jenn Air advice in there? |
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31 Jul 06 - 11:46 PM (#1798415) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: GUEST,Old Guy There is probably some black cardboard screwed to the back that you remove for cleaning. |
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01 Aug 06 - 09:21 AM (#1798676) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Rapparee Our new dishwasher arrives this evening. The one that came with the house no longer fills (yes, I've checked the fill valve float and other things), so off it goes. I can't say I'm unhappy -- the thing doesn't clean as well as it should and I have no idea how old it is. As a side note, I think it was a home-installed job. When we had it checked by the plumbers before we moved in they found that it wasn't hooked through to the garbage disposal and one of the inlets was sealed off with a Pepsi cap and black electrician's tape! |
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01 Aug 06 - 11:00 AM (#1798791) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage Rapaire, take a photo of that old setup and put in the caption "accident waiting to happen!" Whew! But then, you've had lots of stories about odd wiring and fixtures and burials around that property. I am pleased to report that all by itself the fridge has once again decided to start cooling. Old Guy, you're right about that piece of cardboard to unscrew from the bottom of the back for cleaning, I encountered it this morning. First I mopped behind the fridge because I was afraid I'd stick to the floor like a fly to flypaper, and when it's dry I'll take that cardboard off and clean it out. I think I'm still going to take out everything, put the frozen stuff in the neighbor's spare freezer, and let it sit open for a while. I can give it a good cleaning, any oddball thing that might have been frozen in an impossible-to-reach place can thaw and drain out, and I can plug it back in and see if everything works as it should. This fridge is too new for it to start having a major failure, and frankly, I have always found that Kenmore products were the prototype for the Eveready Bunny--they keep going and going and going. Back to dishwashers--I have one that I use every month or two just to keep it running, but mostly we drain clean dishes in there. Every so often I pour in a cup of vinegar and run it empty, that seems to help with some of the chemical buildup. If I ever buy a new dishwasher I'm going to do research on those little commercial ones that take just a few minutes but really do the job. They tend to go on a countertop, though, so I'd have to be of a mind to redo the kitchen at the same time. So it's just a thought. SRS |
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01 Aug 06 - 11:51 AM (#1798860) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Rapparee I pointed out to my wife that the last time we bought a dishwasher I also got a new job and we moved. She simply said something like, "Not this time, bucko!" or "In a pig's eye!" or some similar, irrelevant thing. |
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01 Aug 06 - 11:56 AM (#1798868) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Scoville Our dishwasher makes an intermittent grinding noise that we think must be a bearing somewhere (we checked-there are no forks or anything stuck in the bottom) but seems to be working OK. All of our appliances are sixteen years old so we're just sort of waiting for something to give out. The popcorn popper blew on Sunday night. Ran for about 30 seconds and then just stopped and started smoking, but it was probably twenty years old so it wasn't much of a surprise. Family record is the toaster oven--38 years old, been rewired once, and still ticking along. We found one just like it a church rummage sale and bought it, too, just in case. |
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01 Aug 06 - 12:18 PM (#1798897) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: GUEST,Old guy You can put a fan and a lamp in there to warm it up and speed the melting of any frost. Just make sure the light bulb does not get too close to any plastic. If there are air passages, try to look inside to see if something is in there. In higher end fridges uUsually there is a knob that controls how much cold from the freezer goes into the refrigerator. It should be set in mid range or #5 to start. |
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01 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM (#1798930) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: jeffp When my mother would defrost our old refrigerator, she would put pots of hot water in there to speed it along. Have plenty of towels handy. |
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01 Aug 06 - 01:15 PM (#1798954) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Rapparee This is the second large appliance we've replaced this year. The other waa a 3 year old dryer -- it would have cost more to fix than the new one did! This sort of thing annoys the heck out of me, because I'm used to major appliances lasting for years and years. It seems to me that buying a new one wastes not only money but resources AND contributes to pollution -- but it makes economic sense to do so. Fortunately, there's a "gray market" in old appliances. They're taken by people who CAN fix them and used or even sold. |
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01 Aug 06 - 01:36 PM (#1798980) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Dave Swan Allow me to recommend the services of Appliance Factory Parts. On this site you can find, as you would expect, parts as well as owner's manuals and highly useful exploded views of many home appliances. They've bailed me out a couple of times. D |
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01 Aug 06 - 01:50 PM (#1798989) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Micca A useful tip I got from my sister , years ago, is to keep an open container of Bicarbonate of Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) in the fridge, it absorbs smells!! and keeps your fridge smelling fresh then every 3 to six months make a solution from the contents of the container in warm water and wash out the interior of the fridge this helps clean the plastic interior and also removes residual smells that may be "stuck" to the plastic, then pour the remaining Bicarb solution down the kitchen drain, it helps to degrease it!!! |
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01 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM (#1799390) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: GUEST Ring the company who made it, they will be glad to help I would imagine |
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01 Aug 06 - 11:47 PM (#1799491) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage Kenmore is made by Whirlpool, so there are probably cross-references to it in their literature. Not much online about this make and model. I did find one person having a problem with ice buildup in the evaporator, restricting the air flow to the refrigerator and causing it to heat up (don't know if this means the compartment got warm or the motor got hot). In her instance they changed a control board but it didn't stay fixed. My ice maker is making ice and my freezer is cold. The cold compartment is down hovering between 41 and 45 (if people will stop opening the door to take a look and to feel it I'll get a better reading!) I don't think I'll put much food in it to start with, because as one guy said on a discussion list, problems that go away by themselves usually come back by themselves also. (I wonder--on an appliance repair discussion site, to they have a BS section where they discuss music?) |
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02 Aug 06 - 02:58 AM (#1799556) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: JohnInKansas If you can find the Model Number for your refrigerator, you may be able to find an illustration of how all the parts fit together that would give you a clue as to what 's wrong. Try at Sears Parts "Model numbers are usually on the product in a visible location. Look for an aluminum, silver, or white tag that has a number stamped into it. Use that number when searching for parts by model number." Model numbers on most Sears products, which would include Kenmore appliances, usually have the form as shown by at the above page: (Example:106.48062890). (My Kenmore top-freezer shows the model number (363.9734716) on a label just inside the door, on the left, inside the refrigerator compartment.) I don't find a simple path to find an operator's manual for mine, but you might have better luck with a different (more recent) model. Mine is about 9 y.o. The part illustrations, and part listings may not be too helpful unless you have a pretty good idea of what's going on inside your appliance. Most combination freezer/refrigerators cool the freezer compartment via the compressor and refrigerant cycle, with a thermostat in the freezer. There may be a small "cold plate" in the refrigerator compartment as well, but the refrigerant cycle that cools it is controlled by freezer temperature, so it's more of a "booster" than a primary cooling agent for the 'fridge. The refrigerator compartment usually is connected to the freezer via an air column, and air convection is supposed to exchange warm air from the refrig side with cold air from the freezer to cool the refrigerator. Typically an adjustable "baffle plate" in the convection air column controls how rapidly freezer air is leaked in/out of the refrigerator section. Except in very expensive (sophisticated?) models, there is no "thermostatic control" of the refrigerator temperature. It's just an open loop compromise between the freezer temp and the outside world. Since more air convection will occur when there's more heating of the air in the fridge compartment, the open loop is somewhat "self-regulating" if everything works right; but a large change in outside conditions can sometimges require resetting the control. 1. Refrigerator temperature is strongly affected by how often the 'fridge door gets opened, and the "temperature setting" may have to be adjusted if your pattern of access to the refrigerator compartment changes significantly. In a long hot spell, you might just be opening the door a bit more often, which would require opening the baffle (setting a different number on the control) to leak cold air from the freezer at a higher rate. 2. The air passage between freezer and refrigerator compartments must be kept clear. Packing things into either freezer or refrigerator compartments can sometimes block one end or t'other of the air hole. In hot weather, when there is a lot of air exchange, ice can build up, especially at the freezer end. As several have mentioned, fungus and/or furballs could conceivable plug things up. 3. Sometimes, more frequent opening of the freezer door seems to help keep the refrigerator compartment more evenly regulated(?). One theory is that it helps redistribute the ice that otherwise tends to accumulate where the 'fridge air enters the freezer, although I'm not convinced that's the best theory. Since the freezer is staying cold, it's unlikely that there's a major problem with the compressor/refrigerant machinery, but many "modern" refrigerator/freezer units have one or more "defrost heaters," failure of which can allow ice buildup that blocks the transfer air column. Some units also have internal fans that can "boost" the transfer between freezer and 'fridge compartments, and in some cases the fans may have a thermostat that could fail. (And even with a floor model on sale, you should have been given the operators' manual and parts list, even if they do seldom put much useful information in them.) It's possible that the Sears site linked above might also have the JenAire part queried, since they do repair all brands, even if Sears doesn't sell them. John |
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02 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM (#1799794) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage 2. The air passage between freezer and refrigerator compartments must be kept clear. Packing things into either freezer or refrigerator compartments can sometimes block one end or t'other of the air hole. In hot weather, when there is a lot of air exchange, ice can build up, especially at the freezer end. As several have mentioned, fungus and/or furballs could conceivable plug things up. I have to plead guilty to sometimes having the freezer irregularly packed, and that may be what allowed a cascade of events to result in blocking the flow to the fridge. It has been staying in the low-40s today, and I just set it to be cooler, to see if it is adjusting okay. When I get my freezer stuff back there will be less and I will keep it neater (easier to do since some stuff was sacrificed in order to keep fridge stuff cold by being packed around things I thought I could save in lieu of having a lot of ice handy. They were mostly last year's veggies from the garden that needed to be tossed anyway). I'm going to cancel the Sears call and see what happens. SRS |
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03 Aug 06 - 11:45 AM (#1800603) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage Wrap up: It wouldn't have been one of my plastic bags over a vent (I thought the intake might be near the bottom at the coldest area--it's not, it's near the top). The diffuser motor was not working, or was working only intermittently. If I'd had a manual I'd have known how to confirm this with the fridge's little computer (hit on/off and reset at the same time then click through the lights for the freezer and each one represents yes/no on various motors.) The module for the blower motor was tidy and easily replaced. I could have done it myself, though for the time it would have taken to order it and then to get myself to the point of doing the job myself we'd have spent the $229 on eating out. I can now go get my frozen food back from the neighbor's house (I could have left it in my freezer, but it was nice to be able to totally clean out the compartments). If I'd bought and repurchased the annual warranties companies offer over the years I'd have paid more out than this repair cost. I buy appliances because they have a reputation for durability and quality. I this I seem to be "self-insured." SRS |
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03 Aug 06 - 11:59 AM (#1800620) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage That last line was supposed to read "In this I seem to be "self-insured." |
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03 Aug 06 - 01:24 PM (#1800685) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: JohnInKansas SRS - Sears was one of the original "major offenders" in the extended warranty business. I have had two friends who worked for Sears, whose sales volume was among the leaders for departments in which they worked, who literally were fired for not selling enough warranty extensions. It is an extremely profitable facet of business for them. Unfortunately, the concept has spread to virtually all retail outlets so Sears can't really be held up as THE bad example any longer. The current leader appears to be Hewlett Packard, with their entire line of inkjet printers. Their laser printers are trouble free, and virtually indestructible, but I must conclude that their inkjet printers are designed to fail from easily user-repairable designed-in defects, within six months of the end of warranty, and they refuse to provide part lists or other information that would allow user repair. This forces you to "send the printer in" at a fixed fee of about 50% of the original price of the printer - unless you have paid 30% of the original price for the extended warranty. With the original or extended warranty, they usually will send you a **replacement printer, which will be a "rebuilt/used" one. [Note: This rant has been delivered to the HP CEO, with "polite" reply, and subsequent follow up from their customer service people; but they seem to profit from present policies and are not inclined to change.] ** HP screwed up and one of my inkjets failed while still under warranty. They immediately shipped me a rebuilt replacement, which was DOA. They immediately shipped me a second replacement, which was DOA. They immediately shipped a third replacement that worked for exactly 13 months (the standard warranty had I bought it new would have been 12 months) before failing due to their designed-in standard defect. I have "modified" the paper path to continue to use it, and I believe I can replicate the failed parts using the flint-springs salvaged from two BIC lighters, which I will do iff necessary. Extended warranties are extremely profitable for those who sell them, which strongly implies they are priced to greatly exceed the cost of repairs that will be made under warranty for most users. If, as HP has done, they make trivial repairs extremely and disproportionately expensive, they may still be almost necessary; but I'm resisting. (Rant over, but not forgotten.) John |
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04 Aug 06 - 10:06 AM (#1801413) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage I bought an extended warranty on my pickup when I bought it, the equivalent of a couple of sizable repairs, and my warranty went for five years. I never used it, so in effect, I just paid $800 too much on my truck. I probably won't do that again. I never buy extended warranties for anything else. The other group I find has backed down some but I used to face-off across the counter regularly were the extra insurance folks at the car rental agencies. They used to try to put the fear of god in you that if you wrecked their car you had to have this insurance, but you didn't. I remember one guy finally backing down at Alamo when I threatened to pick up my bags and go to another rental agency. Merciless. I think through legislation or litigation they've been forced to back down (it has been probably 10 years since the last time I really had to put up a consumer rights struggle in the face of their pressure.) SRS |
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04 Aug 06 - 10:58 AM (#1801450) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage I have cleared my frozen foods out of the fridge my across-the-street neighbor keeps in his backyard shed for those times when they need the extra coldstorage. And my neighbors on either side of me have extra refrigerators. Is this typical? My Dad had one fridge in the house, as is usual, but he had TWO upright freezers out in his shed, used them for storing frozen fruit, mostly. (When he died we had a lot of takers for the most recent season's frozen strawberries--I think the neighborhood knew about his stash! He must have given them away regularly). SRS |
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11 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM (#1807200) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: The Fooles Troupe The other night, I was finishing off a soup, and opened my freezer section of my upside down fridge to get some frozen veges, to discover that it was melting everywhere - it had been ok the night before. I noticed that it had acquired about 6 inches of frost.... been meaning to get a ROUND TUIT... it is winter here. Emptied, left off over night, removed all ice, and now it is OK. Ice is a bad conductor of heat... |
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11 Aug 06 - 11:28 AM (#1807254) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Stilly River Sage Check the seals. My neighbor across the street learned an expensive lesson when he thought his fridge had died and bought a new one, only to discover that it had actually been the seal, not the compressor. He fixed it and keeps it as a spare in his garage for the neighbors when their freezers fail. . . :) I will see about buying one of these spare fridges if any of these neighbors decide to get rid of one. |
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11 Aug 06 - 11:36 AM (#1807260) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Dave the Gnome One other bit of possibly useless advice I got from a fridge/freezer repair man. Apparantly the flow of the liquified gas in the heat exchanger can become blocked resulting in inconsistent temperatures. He said it was alway worthwhile standing the fridge/freezer on it's top for a while and then putting it the right way round again. Not forgetting to let it settle for 24 hours before you plug it back in. Costs nothing - May help. Cheers DtG |
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12 Aug 06 - 12:12 AM (#1807866) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: The Fooles Troupe I have a chest freezer which was stood upside down, and it completely stopped working. |
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12 Aug 06 - 03:49 AM (#1807933) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: JohnInKansas Dave the g - That bit of "folk wisdom" appears to have originated when the old gas refrigerators were more common, and it still persists among the camp crowd where propane refrigerators are the rule. There's no rational rationale for doing it in a compressor driven refrigerator. Even if you did get some "lumps" of refrigerant in the wrong place(s) the compressor can drive enough gas through the circuit to restore proper distribution, with the only requirement being that there is enough refrigerant to be pumped around. In a "gas refrigerator" much of the fluid circulation is by convection only, and the most common failure is due to operating at an odd "off level" condition so that the fluid doesn't drip back to the boiler (where the flame heats it). Since the 'fridge fails because the fluid isn't where it's supposed to be, people have the notion that if you move the fluid around all will be well again. Unfortunately, 'tain't so. Although the failure happens because the fluid isn't where it needs to be, the way the 'fridge fails is that with the boiler "dry" the anti-corrosion additive (sodium chromate) that keeps the 350 psi 150 F ammonia from eating holes in the plumbing forms a solid cake in the boiler and plugs it up. Once it hardens, the sludge cannot be dissolved back into solution with the actual refrigerant no matter how much you move the refrigerant (ammonia) around. How It Works John |
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12 Aug 06 - 05:31 AM (#1807965) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: Dave the Gnome Ahhhh - makes me feel much better. The guy that told me had just delivered me a new one. I could have kicked him! Do you still need to let them settle for 24 hours if they have been away from the perpendicular though? DtG |
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12 Aug 06 - 05:57 AM (#1807978) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: JohnInKansas If it still operates, getting it level before you turn it on is all that's needed. Actually, as long as it's still working, hauling it around and sloshing things a bit is considered a safe practice. The damage only happens when it's operating, sitting still, and unlevel all at the same time; and it's seldom an "instant failure" - just cumulative degradation. It does seem like once you notice one isn't working very well it usually isn't long before it doesn't work at all. And it seems that the smaller ones, found in little trailers etc., are more likely to be unlevel and more likely to be damaged by being unlevel than the bigger refrigerators found in BIG campers (that would tip over if they're not kept level). [The taller the 'fridge is, the better the gravity works on it.] John |
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05 Apr 09 - 04:22 PM (#2605188) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance question From: VirginiaTam Don't want to start a new thread. Pulling my hair out over which frost free (over/under) fridge freezer to buy in UK. Can anyone tell me what to steer away from. I figure Beko is utter crap. Neff, Liebherr are too expensive. Smeg is too ugly. Beyond that I don't have a clue, except that I want about 10 cubic ft, frost free, with doors that don't need clearance. Meaning I want to put it flush against base unit and worktop. Quite fancy the Samsung RL41wgtb , but am afraid the reliabilty is not good. And the only thing I read in googling is that repair men will not work on them, the parts are not easy to come by. Any thought? |
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05 Apr 09 - 05:13 PM (#2605207) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance (fridge/freezer) question From: Stilly River Sage Good timing on this thread. My fridge is acting up again, different problem. |
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06 Apr 09 - 01:50 AM (#2605431) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance (fridge/freezer) question From: JohnInKansas I haven't looked at what's on the market recently, but in the US news reports have indicated a gradual "termination" of several makers who were around and well known not too long ago. At present, there would seem to be only a few (three or four - to perhaps a half dozen) makers of home refrigerator/freezers, but they're still sold with many "brand names" on them. Some brands are "known" to change the actual makers fairly frequently, so buying by brand name doesn't always assure consistent quality. Current marketing regulations do require that every piece of "cooling equipment" must have an "energy efficiency rating" on a conspicuously attached label. Checking a few offerings at a good retailer should give you an idea of what ratings are available in units that meet your space needs. Unlike some earlier attempts to brag about "more efficient" these ratings are well standardized, and testing is required to assure that the products will live up to what is claimed. A seller also can be fined (by the FED) if ratings are found to be incorrect. This makes them an important feature for which you can find some basis for choosing competing models. In a casual search for a small reefer two or three years ago, I found units of nearly identical size and appearance with EER numbers that varied by slightly more than 2 to 1. Although the less efficient ones were a little cheaper, it was quite obvious that - especially running 24/7 in the home - the more efficient ones would pay off the difference quite rapidly. Durability is still something of an open issue, as there are fewer reliable guides; but nearly anything marketed at retail should be good for at least a decade or two. New efficiency ratings promised by the wingnuts may demand that you replace old and "inefficient" ones by the time anything should be expected to break down for anything from reputable dealers before any mainline unit needs repairs to the reefer. Almost nothing has changed in the basic refrigeration machinery in several decades, so your big problem is resisting the "extra chrome, foxtails, booties on the rear-view mirror, and go-fast stripes" that retailers are prone to add on (at extra cost, of course). It's fairly safe to say that if you have a problem, it will be with "something added on" for marketing purposes. John |
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06 Apr 09 - 02:58 AM (#2605454) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance (fridge/freezer) question From: VirginiaTam What I am reading (reviews) in the UK is that the mid to low market frost free units (whatever brand) pack it in inside of 1 to 3 years. Of course people only tend to leave reviews when something has gone wrong. Still it is very worrying. I don't want to shell out £400 to £500 every couple of years for something that always lasted me 2 decades in the US. I only purchased 2 fridge freezers in the 46 years I lived in the US. And the second was not replacing a broken unit, only going larger as my family grew. Both were Whirlpool. I think I will go to library and read the Which reviews about UK units. |
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06 Apr 09 - 04:34 AM (#2605476) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance (fridge/freezer) question From: JohnInKansas VirginiaTam - Perhaps it has something to do with the UK preference for warm beer? You might find something on the history of this "learned liking" with a search on the "Prince of Darkness" who was an early manufacturer of reefers (and lots of other electical stuff) there. John |
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06 Apr 09 - 07:40 AM (#2605522) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance (fridge/freezer) question From: Liz the Squeak Get one with a flat door - the magnets fall off those with the rounded doors... I'll get me coat. LTS |
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06 Apr 09 - 03:51 PM (#2605895) Subject: RE: BS: Kitchen appliance (fridge/freezer) question From: VirginiaTam so helpful aarrgghhh |