Using music without permission

20 Dec 06 - 09:38 PM (#1915307)
Subject: BS: Using music without permission
From: khandu

This possibly should go above the line but they'd all go in shock if I created a bona fide music thread!

Today, I discovered that a song I had written and had posted as a low-quality recording on another web site has found it's way on YouTube as backgroud music for a non-music related video.

I found this quite amusing and, at the same time, a bit disturbing. The video creator gave no mention of the origins of the music until someone posted a comment telling the name of the author (me). The creator then put my name in the "tags" and stated that this was my "cover" of another artist's song.

This, along with the mentioned comments, have been on YouTube for two months. As stated earlier, today was the first I knew of it.

Initially, I was ambivalent. I felt somewhat flattered and somewhat miffed at the same time.

I have sent an e-mail to the video's creator. I await his response.

I give the guy the benefit of doubt. Perhaps he thought it was a "loose" tune, perhaps he didn't care one way or the other. Perhaps he figured the odds of anyone caring or knowing were high.

But it leaves me with a "Man, you don't do stuff like that" attitude...ask first!

ken

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20 Dec 06 - 09:49 PM (#1915313)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: McGrath of Harlow

But how'd he know? He might have found it anywhere, without attribution. I can understand the feeling flattered bit; but the miffed bit would surely only be appropriate if the bloke fails to correct it, now you've got in touch.

Why not give us a link to the YouTube video? Then if it doesn't get attributed correctly, people from here could add a few comments. And we'd get to hear your song as well.

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20 Dec 06 - 09:53 PM (#1915317)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: Rapparee

I most certainly would do so, Oh My King And Leader.

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20 Dec 06 - 10:05 PM (#1915330)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: Peace

It is at once flattering and disturbing. However, if the video creator has any class at all (s)he'll post proper credt ASAP.

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20 Dec 06 - 10:07 PM (#1915332)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: khandu

I will post the link after I hear from the fellow. I would not wish for my Mudcat buds to get overzealous and jump the gnu!

You would get to hear part of the song ( a very poor quality recording & performance, I might add!)...the vid is a mere 1:15 minutes long.

k

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20 Dec 06 - 10:56 PM (#1915361)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: Bee-dubya-ell

This is not the song about the Pelahatchee Goat Fuck Roast is it, Yore Royal Majesty?

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20 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM (#1915367)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: khandu

Dangitalltoheck, BeeDud, you seem to have inside knowledge of this felonious act. Did you give this guy the heads-up on my Goat Fu, uh, Roast song?

What is equally baffling is the guy who commented on the video, saying that I was the artist. I have contacted him also, just to see who he is and how he recognized the song. Very few have heard it.

k

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20 Dec 06 - 11:42 PM (#1915383)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: Bert

...if the video creator has any class at all (s)he'll post proper credit ASAP... And the royalties of course.

If you need us to support you just yell. We'll be there.

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21 Dec 06 - 10:22 AM (#1915742)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: Cluin

There is so much unattributed or wrongly attributed stuff circulating around the Net the video creator likely didn't know where the music came from. I see virtually every spoof song being accredited to Weird All Yankovic and every rant being claimed as coming from George Carlin. Mostly, folks don't care.

But I agree, if you use something like that, you should make the effort to give credit where it is due. (and notify the creator if possible, chances are good they will be amenable to its use.)

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21 Dec 06 - 10:23 AM (#1915746)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: Cluin

By the way, I don't think this is a BS (below-the-salt) thread.

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22 Dec 06 - 07:37 AM (#1916582)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: GUEST,Observer

Why is this below the line?

It's certainly music related.

Just a thought

Ob

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22 Dec 06 - 08:05 AM (#1916605)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: jeffp

It's Khandu's choice. He explained it in his initial post.

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22 Dec 06 - 08:19 AM (#1916613)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: GUEST

"Man, you don't do stuff like that" attitude...ask first!

"If you need us to support you just yell. We'll be there."


Take care, it happens here often enough with copy pastes which are often not attributed from unknown web sites.

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22 Dec 06 - 09:05 AM (#1916639)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: GUEST,Observer

I did read khandu's post, but I still ask the question as I believe that other people who don't read below the line may have some valuable input or may gain something from khandu's experience.

Sorry if I've fallen short of etiquette but I feel that it is a valid thread for above the line

Ob

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22 Dec 06 - 10:33 AM (#1916726)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: Uncle_DaveO

Sure it would be, but that's Khandu's choice.

Dave Oesterreich

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22 Dec 06 - 04:07 PM (#1916982)
Subject: RE: BS: Using music without permission
From: khandu

Thanks for the input and the kindness, folks! So far there has been no response from the video creator. Hopefully, he will respond soon.

It is no major thing, but the principle is important. As Peace has said, it is my music and I do want my name on it!

The video can be found HERE.

I post this just so you can see and hear it; I am not asking at this time for your supporting comments to the person. Thanks!

I also have PMed Joe Offer asking that this be moved above the line. If any of the MudElves see this before he can respond, feel free to move it yourself!

Ken

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22 Dec 06 - 04:11 PM (#1916985)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Joe Offer

Khandu asked me to move this above the line, so I move it. I think it would be nice if people could be feel free to make use of things we post without asking permission or paying royalties, but just giving us credit.
-Joe-

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22 Dec 06 - 06:19 PM (#1917064)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Stewart

I think that not only should the author and the source be acknowledged, but permission should also be obtained. It is then up to the author whether any payment is requested. I would hope that most people in the folk music community would not request payment, but I can also understand that professional musicians need some payment for their work, particularly if it is for commercial purposes.

Awhile ago my friend Don Firth encountered unauthorized publication of his writing. Although his name was given, the source was not, and permission was not obtained. I wrote a piece in the Victory Review about this, here. After Don severly chatised the person who did this, he graciously gave permission.

I find through googling that much of my writing appears on other sites on the internet. So far, most have acknowledged me as the author, but only in a few cases have I been asked to give permission. While acknowledgement is sufficient for me, asking permission shows a bit of respect and common courtesy, and I might add, class.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

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22 Dec 06 - 06:40 PM (#1917074)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: GUEST

Quit yer bellyachin Mr. Whitfield -

That is a nice piece and you are getting good exposeur - Whitfield "Dirt Road" and Hurt- places that piece of art in the number one and two slots on a Google search.

When you go posting to places like
www.msjohnhurtmuseum.com/mp3.html

Of course you can expect your plums to be picked.

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23 Dec 06 - 08:08 AM (#1917384)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Nick

Why don't you post a comment on the video putting the matter right?

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23 Dec 06 - 09:45 AM (#1917420)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: GUEST,PD

Guest 22 dec 06.40pm

Whilst putting a file on a site like this invites sharing by it's very nature, it doesn't give permission for unlicensed copy or broadcast. I'm with Nick actually put a post on their website if they don't respond to your first contact. It is unfortunately a sign of the electronic age that if we share things people can pick them up and use them. Sometimes this is an unintentional miss-use however sometimes it will be purposeful miss-use. I hope you get a satisfactory response and credit for your work.

Good luck

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23 Dec 06 - 10:27 AM (#1917443)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: johnadams

Joe Offer wrote:

I think it would be nice if people could be feel free to make use of things we post without asking permission or paying royalties, but just giving us credit.

A good way of determining what happens when you put stuff out into the public domain is to attach a Creative Commons licence. Not foolproof of course, but flexible and user and re-user friendly.

http://creativecommons.org/

J

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23 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM (#1917686)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Joe Offer

I post a lot of information that I've researched from a variety of resources. I'm always careful to document my sources because documented information is far more valuable - and because it's the right thing to do.
But I think of folk music information on the Internet as a community effort to compile and share and preserve - and I assume that permission to copy and post (not for profit) is implied.
-Joe-

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23 Dec 06 - 05:14 PM (#1917709)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: John O'L

"...as backgroud music for a non-music related video."

Khandu your humility is almost embarrassing. I watched the video. Your music is a significant part of the work. As Stewart said, you should be acknowledged, and they should have asked your permission. As it turns out the work is benign, but it could just as easily have been pornographic, facist, etc, what then?

(NB - I'm not for a moment suggesting your music lends itself to these pursuits, but you never know what people will do - Look what Manson did to Helter Skelter)

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23 Dec 06 - 05:35 PM (#1917728)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: McGrath of Harlow

I see the comment on the video:

Hi sindesign,
The music is from Ken Whitfield
in remembering of Mississippi John Hurt.
Nevertheless,a very beautiful poster design.
Thank you.

sindesign (2 months ago)
So it is, my apologies, such a good cover it's easily mistaken. I've updated the info to correctly credit Ken.

And the heading: Music: Ken Whitfield's cover of "Dirt Road" by Mississippi John Hurt

Looks like a straightforward misunderstanding - and a flattering one. First he thought you were John Hurt playing and singing, and then assumed it must be a John Hurt blues you were playing. I would rather assume that there will be a further correction if "sindesign" is reminded to put one in.

After all he couldn't very well have asked John Hurt's permissioin in the first place, since he's long dead.

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23 Dec 06 - 08:20 PM (#1917867)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: McGrath of Harlow

And I note on that John Hurt site it does say:

These are MP3 Files – playable by Windows Media and other players – submitted by people who have visited our website and want to share their own versions of them playing John's music with other people.

So it was surely very reasonable to assume that khandu was playing John Hurt's music.

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23 Dec 06 - 08:26 PM (#1917871)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Cluin

Nice vid there, but the best thing about it is the music. The maker has good taste.

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24 Dec 06 - 01:08 PM (#1918220)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Barry T

It's interesting that this thread demonstrates that the respect of copyright does not necessarily focus on money. So many threads I've followed define the arguments, both for and against, only in terms of bucks.

While I acknowledge that there are those trying to earn a living from their creativity, there are also those among us who simply like to share and be acknowledged. John Adams pointer to the Creative Common licensing is a great suggestion. Without knowing the existence of this licensing model, I have taken advantage of several of these options myself for my modest (tiny) list of works.

It is immensely satisfying to see your own tunes or songs spread via the Internet. It is even more satisfying to see acknowledgements of authorship when that work is shared!

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25 Dec 06 - 06:47 AM (#1918598)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Tim theTwangler

Is it very gratifying to find your creation is in use like this?
I always get a buzz when I hear covers of my own humble songs
Even if not perfromed how I intended.
Good luck with sorting the problem out mate.

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25 Dec 06 - 02:17 PM (#1918735)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Bert

Very interesting Garg. I'll look into that when I've got more time.

But for now, Merry Christmas Ol' Buddy.

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25 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM (#1918781)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: GUEST

THIS May become my new "google" for text research.

WOW - works pretty well. Look what "Hell Bound Train" from the DT turns up.

Plug this into the URL for COPYSCAPE

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=6441

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26 Dec 06 - 08:26 AM (#1919096)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: wysiwyg

I am sure no one at Mudcat has ever sung a song by someone else at a paying gig, and failed to attribute the song and where they found the lyric and tune posted for one and all to use.

~Susan

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26 Dec 06 - 10:39 AM (#1919147)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: McGrath of Harlow

I think treating songs as property can easily become a kind of betrayal of the tradition in which the songs we sing today have their roots.

When it comes to people making large sums of money out of recording or performing songs and tunes made up by living people, or songs and tunes derived directly from these, it's right that the originators should have a share of that money; and in many cases it's only good manners to give the name of the person who wrote a song or tune, when we perform it.

But that's as far as it should go, and it's not that far.

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03 Jan 07 - 09:41 PM (#1926101)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: khandu

Due to a glitch of some sort at YouTube, my messages to sindesign were never delivered to him.

Tonight, I finally got a message to him, to which he responded quickly and gracefully. The following is a comment he left on the board.:

Hi Ken - sorry for the misunderstanding - I have re-corrected the info. Good to have it from the horse's mouth, as it were.

This is all I wanted.

I thank all of you for your comments, offers of support and PMs. They meant a lot to me!

Ken

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03 Jan 07 - 10:04 PM (#1926119)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Celtaddict

I'm glad this is straightened out. The nature of both Mudcat and YouTube make it very easy for this sort of thing to occur, and noblesse oblige requires it be corrected whenever possible.
But am I the only person bemused by Khandu's worry that his Mudcat friends would jump the gnu??
20 Dec, 10:07

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03 Jan 07 - 10:27 PM (#1926134)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: khandu

LOL...gnu-jumping; the latest craze among folkies!!

k

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03 Jan 07 - 10:32 PM (#1926140)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: jeffp

It's really great to hear of an honorable person. It helps to maintain one's faith in the human animal.

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04 Jan 07 - 02:16 PM (#1926626)
Subject: RE: Using music without permission
From: Declan

Warning: Jumping the gnu is liable to make the beast wilder.

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