Meaning- masters in this hall

20 Dec 06 - 10:41 PM (#1915349)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: GUEST,Julia

I seem to be having trouble posting- sorry

I'd like to know the meaning of the "hinds" in the last verse of this carol-

And a little child on her arm had she
"wot ye who is this" said the hinds to me

So who or what are the "hinds"

I have read that these lyrics are some kind of translation by William Morris (the pre-raphaelite artist?)

cheers
Julia

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20 Dec 06 - 10:49 PM (#1915355)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Peace

"[Alteration of Middle English hine, household servants, possibly from Old English hne, genitive of hgan, hwan, members of a household; see kei-1 in Indo-European roots.]"

That would make sense, I think.

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20 Dec 06 - 10:58 PM (#1915364)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: leeneia

thanks, Peace. that's a new word for me.

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21 Dec 06 - 11:11 AM (#1915792)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: GUEST

HIND - locally (i.e. when used as a census occupation), a farm manager; more generally, a farm servant

i.e. the shepherds

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21 Dec 06 - 11:17 AM (#1915800)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: nutty

a hind is also a female red deer

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21 Dec 06 - 11:20 AM (#1915802)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: skipy

Chiefly British. A farm laborer, especially a skilled worker.
Archaic. A country bumpkin; a rustic.
[Alteration of Middle English hine, household servants, possibly from Old English hîne, genitive of hîgan, hîwan, members of a household.]
Skipy

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21 Dec 06 - 11:52 AM (#1915833)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Scrump

I think it's unlikely that the meaning in this case is a female deer. It would be unusual for them to say "wot ye who is this".

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21 Dec 06 - 05:26 PM (#1916115)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: leeneia

And now I understand the heretofore baffling song "Hind Horn." (It's in the DT.)

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21 Dec 06 - 05:35 PM (#1916124)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: GUEST,Julia

Thanks so much! I can now sing it with conviction. I tend to avoid singing things that don't make sense to me

harpy holly daze

Julia

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21 Dec 06 - 07:33 PM (#1916230)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: CapriUni

Could this share the same root with the term "farm hands?"

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21 Dec 06 - 08:33 PM (#1916273)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Hands, meaning help, seems to have been common by the 17th c.
A person employed by any other in any manual work; 1655.
Applied to a ship's crew, 1699

The OED doesn't mention the possible derivation of this usage from 'hind,' but the suggestion by CapriUni seems possible.

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22 Dec 06 - 08:56 AM (#1916636)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Trevor

Is this also the root of 'hinny' as used in the NE of England? I'd always thought that it was derived from 'hen', as in 'chick', but maybe not.

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22 Dec 06 - 09:44 AM (#1916671)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Scrump

I believe 'hinny' is derived from 'hen' too. But I'm not a Geordie - where are they all when you need them?

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22 Dec 06 - 09:53 AM (#1916678)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: IanC

Hinny is derived from Honey.l

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22 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM (#1916716)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Scrump

According to wikipedia, a hinny is the offspring of a male horse and a female donkey.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny

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29 Apr 16 - 09:48 PM (#3787857)
Subject: RE: Meaning- masters in this hall
From: Joe Offer

Thread #27932   Message #345633
Posted By: John P
23-Nov-00 - 08:19 AM
Thread Name: Help: 18th century songs, tunes and carols
Subject: Lyr Add: MASTERS IN THIS HALL^^

Masters in This Hall

Masters in this hall, hear you news today
Brought from over sea, and every you I pray.

Chorus:
Nowell, nowell, nowell!
Nowell sing we clear!
Holpen are all folk on earth
Born is God's son so dear!
Nowell, nowell, nowell!
Nowell sing we loud!
God today hath poor folk raised
And cast a-down the proud.

Then to Bethle'm town we went two by two
And in a sorry place heard the oxen low.

Therein did we see a sweet and goodly may
And a fair old man, upon the straw she lay.

And a little child on her arm had she
"Wot ye who is this?" said the hinds to me.

This is Christ the lord, Masters, be ye glad
Christmas is come and no folk should be sad.

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