Can't sing for Toffee

17 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM (#1939586)
Subject: Can't sing for Toffee
From: GUEST,Davetnova

On BBC listen again
Can't sing for Toffee. . Six Non- singing/non gaelic speakers are taught to sing in unaccompanied Gaelic in 48 hours.

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17 Jan 07 - 01:10 PM (#1939604)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: CharleyO'Neill

What a thoroughly boring and pointless experience to put oneself through!!

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17 Jan 07 - 01:43 PM (#1939634)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Big Al Whittle

In the autumn of 1960, we had music lessons for a whole term to learn to sing our school song in Latin. Floreat Bostona!

One timorous first year asked the million dollar question, what do all these words mean..... sir?

Pinhead, the sinister music teacher muttered through gritted teeth - YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW THAT....!

The words of the school song were on a 'need to know' basis. And in may ways that summed up our whole education.

We didn't actually need to know much, except we were there to shut up and behave ourselves. Most of us got quite good at that.

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17 Jan 07 - 02:05 PM (#1939666)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: DMcG

My headmaster was a priest who, when we sang 'Gaudeamus igitur', was quite happy to translate it all for us, except the lines 'Vivant omnes virgines/Faciles, formosae', which he simply refused to explain.

I still don't know why, really, but I assume it's that 'faciles' that bothered him.

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17 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM (#1939685)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: catspaw49

And just when I thought that we here in the colonies had the corner on the market for insipid and overwhelmingly stupid shows, once more the BBC steps forward and salutes!

Why would anyone even think about making something like this?

Spaw

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17 Jan 07 - 02:56 PM (#1939724)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Georgiansilver

Hey AL...ours was 'Floreat Totnesia'.....bet it didn't sound the same though.

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17 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM (#1939794)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: catspaw49

They complained about how scary it was? I'l bet these people have to sneak p on a toilet to drop a load........Maybe they need to be listening to Limbaugh. HEY!! Better yet, how about we get Rush to sing in Gaelic? Better yet, Bush sings harmony. As the song ends both are zapped with a Taser and whichever one loses complete control and craps himself gets free trip to Baghdad where they try to enlist Arab women to pose for Penthouse.

Spaw

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18 Jan 07 - 12:18 AM (#1940170)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: CapriUni

Naw... I have enough trouble just listening to those men talk... I don't need to hear them sing.

But this is thread creep.

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18 Jan 07 - 07:41 PM (#1941095)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: SharonA

Gaelic Idol?

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18 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM (#1941108)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Andy Jackson

Just come back from a sort of singaround in our local
I sort of sang!
Just eaten two toffees,
singing no better
best take my teeth to bed while I still got them!!

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19 Jan 07 - 01:52 AM (#1941313)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: GUEST

When God really wants people to sing, He teaches them English.

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19 Jan 07 - 07:40 AM (#1941429)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: GUEST,banjoman

Thinking about not being able to "sing for toffee" reminded me of an incident when I was at school (1950's) and getting an end of term report which showed fairly good exam marks with the exception of music where one infamous "Christian Brother" had written "Musically speaking this pupil is dead from the neck up" This piece of paper has remained amongst my treasured possesions and possibly explains my nickname, as the same person called the banjo "The instrument of the Devil"
I always saw this as an inpiration to accomplish something musically, convinced the the Devil had no right to all the good music about in those days and I went on to play with several groups in sixties Liverpool on guitar and banjo, and now spend lots of my early retirement either making banjos (mainly for myself) or playing with the band. Not so many gigs nowadays as my early retirement was brought on by mobility problems although the hands & fingers can still rattle out a tune when needed.
Anyone can sing just need a bit of encouragement
Keep Singing

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19 Jan 07 - 07:46 AM (#1941432)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: catspaw49

I picked up this wonderful Brit expression a long time ago because I just loved the sound of it. Where the hell did it come from? Anybody know? I haven't Googled it yet but I was hoping someone here knew.

Spaw

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19 Jan 07 - 09:04 AM (#1941502)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: GUEST,Granny

In primary school (1950s) we often used to taunt each other with "You can't ....   for toffee" which wasn't only confined to singing. I don't know where the expression came from, either.

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16 Apr 07 - 01:29 AM (#2026467)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Jim Lad

Floreat Bostona ... May Boston Flourish???

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16 Apr 07 - 02:00 AM (#2026471)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Big Al Whittle

JIm lad
who are you?

another refugee from that Lincolnshire gulag, BGS?

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16 Apr 07 - 02:16 AM (#2026482)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Muttley

C'mon DMcG don't be coy
what DOES 'Vivant omnes virgines/Faciles, formosae' translate as - my high school Latin deserted me Loooooooonnnng ago - got pretty much the same comment on my Latin marks at years' end as banjoman got for music.

The best I could come up with was - nope, forget it. Literal; translation makes NO bloody sense at ALL!!!

I was going to ask if DMcG went to the same school as me, but Liverpool is a fair way from Melbourne, Aust. Maybe it's just that Christian Brothers the world round are just sadistic, sarcastic bastards - maybe it's an entry requirement.

Here are a couple of other report-card gems I've heard - fortunately not applied to me:

This child would be out of her depth in a parking lot puddle

Your child has, academically speaking, hit rock bottom - and started digging.

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16 Apr 07 - 02:57 AM (#2026491)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Jim Lad

Et tu, weelittledrummerus!

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16 Apr 07 - 04:06 AM (#2026508)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Liz the Squeak

The online latin translators I use don't recognise those lines as a whole and are having trouble with Vivant! However... when I sing in concerts, a simultaneous translation is available if you read the programme, so I've rootled round to see what I can come up with.

'Vivant omnes virgines'

Vivant ?- vivos = life - be alive, sustain life.
omnes = all
virgines = virgins

'Faciles formosae'

Faciles = Easily (facilitate)
formosae = beautifully (?transfer of the body of a saint)

And still it makes no sense!

I suspect it was 'virgines' that was giving the priest trouble... although my experience of priests in general would indicate that they have no trouble at all with the 'gin' part.

LTS

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16 Apr 07 - 04:14 AM (#2026514)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: stallion

mmmmmmm I got 0 out of ten for music once at school, we had to get up and sing in turn and then each had a turn on a triangle, drum and piano and then marked out of ten, struck me that hardly any of us had seen a piano out of school let alone played on one!
Ah, and those were the good old days! Can't shed any light on the Toffee although it would be interesting to know it's provenance, it was in extensive use in our family (Yorkshire)

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16 Apr 07 - 04:20 AM (#2026521)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Snuffy

"Vivant" is the plural form of "vivat", meaning "may they live". As in Vivat Rex = Long live the King. So I've always taken it to mean ssomething like

Long live all the girls who are amenable and shapely.

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16 Apr 07 - 04:52 AM (#2026533)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Liz the Squeak

but Virgines is virgins, so amenable isn't really relevant.. otherwise they woudln't be virgins!

Unless that's supposed to be Amen able.

LTS

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16 Apr 07 - 05:03 AM (#2026541)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Big Al Whittle

yes indeed Jim lad, this is me

http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/


recently I met up with Dave Fletcher, who's also on the folkscene.

Dave organised a dinner with Johnnie Southwell and Keith Gostelow.

We were all in 2B together Mr Tromans class.

they tell me Dean Hardy has a folk club up near Bourne somwhwere.

you're not he, are you? do you know us?

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16 Apr 07 - 06:02 AM (#2026565)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: GUEST,micca at work

Liz, I have always thought , given a choice, I would rather be in the dark with the 5 foolish virgins than in the light with the 5 wise!!!

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16 Apr 07 - 07:12 AM (#2026612)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Liz the Squeak

And were it possible, I'd be one of those with the candles.

LTS

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16 Apr 07 - 09:24 AM (#2026713)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Flash Company

All the nice virgins love a candle!
My late Brother in law, Peter apparently regularly brought home a school report wherein for Music the comment was 'No singing voice yet!' He died aged 74 and still hadn't got one. Same thing goes for his son.

FC

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16 Apr 07 - 09:55 AM (#2026757)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: DMcG

"Virgines is virgins" - certainly, but it also means "young girls". So I stick with the idea that it was the idea of easy-going young girls that bothered my teacher!

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16 Apr 07 - 10:04 AM (#2026769)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Amos

I think, in essence, it means "long live the easy, beautiful lasses", a sentiment I agree with.


A

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16 Apr 07 - 10:07 AM (#2026778)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: leeneia

To get back to the TV show - some people here seem to wonder why a person would sing words he didn't understand. It's not that crazy, people.

1. The average person today is bombarded by messages that he can't, will not, should not sing. Part of it's marketing, much of it's habit. For the participants in the show, it might have been a wonderful eye-opener to learn that they could sing anything, much less a foreign tongue.

2. It can be rewarding to sing in a foreign language when you've been told what the song is about, even if you don't know what every word means. We do that in church, when we sing in Spanish.

3. Some people like to give out negative messages such as that a person can't learn new speech sounds after age 5. The participants may have enjoyed learning new sounds and showing the world they could do it.

In sum, songs don't always have to be a literary experience.

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16 Apr 07 - 10:31 AM (#2026812)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Jim Lad

weelittledrummer's web-site is really worth a visit. Should tell those in dial-up, wind-up or stirrups that it has background music so it may take a little while to load. Excellent song, singer & guitar though with a pleasant choice of music.
weelittledrummer, you're a talented man. You hide it well, on here.
Cheers.

Jim

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23 Apr 07 - 09:44 AM (#2033397)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Rasener

Big Al is indeed a talented man, and very witty, and it has always been a pleasure having him on at my club.

Listened to some of your stuff Jim Lad - very nice indeed.

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12 May 07 - 06:10 PM (#2050190)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: skipy

Hey,you lot, try spending your whole life as an organiser becasuse you can't sing, that may, just may give you a differant view on what goes on. You can arrive at a venue to find it all set up for you, you can play & sing to your hearts delight & you can leave, somehow it "all happens", all on it's own. So please don't "take the piss" a lot of work goes into providing your "stages".
Skipy

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27 May 07 - 12:20 AM (#2061654)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Ebbie

I especially like the experience of listening to opera when I don't know the language. All those long vowel sounds, shimmering in duet. Love it.

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27 May 07 - 07:43 PM (#2062056)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: TRUBRIT

So - does anyone know the origin of the ...'I can't ------ for toffee' -- it's certainly an expression I was raised on as in - can't do maths for toffee, can't learn German for toffee etc etc. Curious to know where it comes from......never really thought about it. Maybe from the same place as the Mrs. Binns' twins' expression that we used to use in England when two people were dressed similarly, or looked the same..........you two look like Mrs. Binn's twins's....

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27 May 07 - 08:57 PM (#2062104)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Surreysinger

Well, I tried Googling for the origins of the expression, and couldn't come up with anything, apart from the fact that it's an English expression.... surprising. I must admit I'd never thought about it - it's just one of those phrases you've been using all your life - you know what it means, but have no idea why!! Despite being true born and bred English, and never budging therefrom all my life I have NEVER heard anybody use a phrase about "Mrs Binn's twins". I can only assume that it's one of those regional things - whereabouts do you hail from Trubrit???

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27 May 07 - 09:15 PM (#2062116)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: TRUBRIT

Dad was from Manchester, mum was from Slough -- been living in the US for many many years now! I think it was a Southern expression because I beieve my mum used it and not my dad........she also used to say, 'you look like the wreck of the Hesperus........' which if I had any decent level of historical knowledge at all, I would probably know where it came from.

Other Brits out there, my curiosity has now been roused......does anyone know the origin of that phrase (or any of the three) - can't .... for toffee, Mrs.Binn's twins (pronounced Mrs. Binn's twinses....,and you look like the wreck of the Hesperus.....

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28 May 07 - 10:30 AM (#2062353)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Big Al Whittle

its a poem

"WRECK OF THE HESPERUS"
It was the schooner Hesperus,
That sailed the wintery sea;
And the skipper had taken his little daughter,
To bear him company.

Blue were her eyes as the fairy flax,
Her cheeks like the dawn of day,
And her bosom white as the hawthorn buds,
That ope in the month of May.

The Skipper he stood beside the helm,
His pipe was in his mouth,
And he watched how the veering flaw did blow
The smoke now West, now South.

Then up and spake an old Sailor,
Had sailed the Spanish Main,
"I pray thee, put into yonder port,
for I fear a hurricane.

"Last night the moon had a golden ring,
And to-night no moon we see!"
The skipper, he blew whiff from his pipe,
And a scornful laugh laughed he.

Colder and louder blew the wind,
A gale from the Northeast,
The snow fell hissing in the brine,
And the billows frothed like yeast.

Down came the storm, and smote amain
The vessel in its strength;
She shuddered and paused, like a frighted steed,
Then leaped her cable's length.

"Come hither! come hither! my little daughter,
And do not tremble so;
For I can weather the roughest gale
That ever wind did blow."

He wrapped her warm in his seaman's coat
Against the stinging blast;
He cut a rope from a broken spar,
And bound her to the mast.

"O father! I hear the church bells ring,
Oh, say, what may it be?"
"Tis a fog-bell on a rock bound coast!" --
And he steered for the open sea.

"O father! I hear the sound of guns;
Oh, say, what may it be?"
Some ship in distress, that cannot live
In such an angry sea!"

"O father! I see a gleaming light.
Oh say, what may it be?"
But the father answered never a word,
A frozen corpse was he.

Lashed to the helm, all stiff and stark,
With his face turned to the skies,
The lantern gleamed through the gleaming snow
On his fixed and glassy eyes.

Then the maiden clasped her hands and prayed
That saved she might be;
And she thought of Christ, who stilled the wave,
On the Lake of Galilee.

And fast through the midnight dark and drear,
Through the whistling sleet and snow,
Like a sheeted ghost, the vessel swept
Tow'rds the reef of Norman's Woe.

And ever the fitful gusts between
A sound came from the land;
It was the sound of the trampling surf,
On the rocks and hard sea-sand.

The breakers were right beneath her bows,
She drifted a dreary wreck,
And a whooping billow swept the crew
Like icicles from her deck.

She struck where the white and fleecy waves
Looked soft as carded wool,
But the cruel rocks, they gored her side
Like the horns of an angry bull.

Her rattling shrouds, all sheathed in ice,
With the masts went by the board;
Like a vessel of glass, she stove and sank,
Ho! ho! the breakers roared!

At daybreak, on the bleak sea-beach,
A fisherman stood aghast,
To see the form of a maiden fair,
Lashed close to a drifting mast.

The salt sea was frozen on her breast,
The salt tears in her eyes;
And he saw her hair, like the brown sea-weed,
On the billows fall and rise.

Such was the wreck of the Hesperus,
In the midnight and the snow!
Christ save us all from a death like this,
On the reef of Norman's Woe!

By Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.

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28 May 07 - 06:20 PM (#2062637)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Surreysinger

I've just googled for Mrs Binns Twins - it seems to have been a comic song performed in the 1930's by Gracie Fields ... I haven't been able to find much reference to it (as yet). "The Wreck of the Hesperus" was a phrase well used in our family ... I was aware that it derived from a poem, but until wld just posted them, I had never seen the words.
So Mrs Binns Twins were unknown to our Surrey family ... maybe they just weren't Gracie Fields fans??

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28 May 07 - 06:25 PM (#2062638)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Can't sing for toffee" - I wonder whether it might come from some anecdote about someone being unable to sing because their jaws were clemmed up with toffee. The kind of story you might have had in a moralistic 19th century Children's Reader, as a warning against self-indulgence.

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29 May 07 - 10:18 PM (#2063700)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: TRUBRIT

I like the toffee theory!!!!

I knew the Wreck of the Hesperus was a pem but hadn't read it before.......

And I am glad I am not totally crazy and there really is an expression - Mrs. Binn's twinses.....

Thanks for all the input!

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30 May 07 - 07:56 AM (#2063925)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: McGrath of Harlow

Mrs Binn's Twins is included in in 101 Comedy Hits For Buskers, which MusicRoom stock.

But the words don't seem to be on line anywhere.

I think Gracie Fields sang it in a 1938 movie, Keep Smiling.

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30 May 07 - 01:03 PM (#2064154)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Snuffy

I've always taken it to mean something like "You couldn't [insert activity here] even if the reward were all the toffee you could ever eat" Probably a more attractive offer than money to some!

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30 May 07 - 01:14 PM (#2064165)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Surreysinger

Nice toffee theory McGrath, but it would only hold true if "can't sing for toffee" as THE phrase ... however, "can't....for toffee" is used for all sorts of different activities - complete the phrase with appropriate activity.... so gummed up jaws wouldn't work in "can't run for toffee" or anything else!! The mystery remains....

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30 May 07 - 11:12 PM (#2064587)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: TRUBRIT

It does indeed.......

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31 May 07 - 03:25 AM (#2064667)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Rusty Dobro

In 1950's Kent, 'Can't sing for toffee-apples!' was a frequent alternative.

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31 May 07 - 01:09 PM (#2065035)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: McGrath of Harlow

The parallel idiom, meaning more or less teh same thing is "Can't do it for nuts". Equally obscure provenance.

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31 May 07 - 09:53 PM (#2065407)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: TRUBRIT

Can't do it for nuts I have NOT heard........

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21 Jun 07 - 12:31 AM (#2082803)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: TRUBRIT

help -- do we have an elf to get rid of this crap?????

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21 Jun 07 - 12:32 AM (#2082804)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: TRUBRIT

Wow w- that was quick!!!!

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21 Jun 07 - 07:42 AM (#2082958)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: GUEST,banjoman

Did a bit of research (spoke to a couple of old mates from Liverpool) & the consensus is that "can't sing for tofee" comes from Liverpool where there was a famous factory making Everton Tofee - its the same reason Everton Football Club are known as the Tofees - and the practice of rewarding children who sang the hymns in Sunday School well, with a tofee. Those who didn't get one "Couldn't sing for tofee"
Its probably got some element of truth about it but who knows - its reminds me of the factory in Liverpool who were reputed to Knit Kettles from steel wool

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21 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM (#2083005)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: MMario

I had assumed it was rhying slang from

Can't xxxxx for beans

becoming for 'coffee beans'

becomign 'coffee'

ending 'toffee'

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21 Jun 07 - 03:19 PM (#2083305)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: McGrath of Harlow

That sounds quite plausible - but in that case the question becomes, why "beans"?

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21 Jun 07 - 03:32 PM (#2083313)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: MMario

because they are cheap and worthless and traditionally the useless item that valuuable items are traded for?

as in Jack and the Beanstalk?

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21 Jun 07 - 08:13 PM (#2083579)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: TRUBRIT

MMario -- interesting but I really like the explanation from banjoman.........that sounds so possible.......

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21 Jun 07 - 08:54 PM (#2083605)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: Gurney

"Swans sing before they die: 'twere no bad thing
that certain persons die before they sing!"

"What do you think of a girl that CAN sing, and won't?"
"I think that I prefer her to a girl who can't sing and will!"

"Extraordinary how potent cheap music is!"

I didn't put these on the 'Quotes' thread because I couldn't be bothered to make sure who's they were. Coleridge, Chesterton and Coward, I think. Not sure though.

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21 Jun 07 - 09:10 PM (#2083618)
Subject: RE: Can't sing for Toffee
From: McGrath of Harlow

First one is Coleridge all right, and the third one is Noel Coward, from Private Lives. The second I'm inclined to think isn't Chesterton - after all he once wrote "If a thing is worth doing it's worth doing badly".

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