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24 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM (#1946932) Subject: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave I note that once again Seth Lakeman appears on the Mike Harding Show. His traditional song the White Hare was played last week. I wonder if he plays it on this weeks programme? Not that one expects any bias - but has anyone noticed any of the other tracks nominated for the best traditional track getting this amount of air time? Dave |
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24 Jan 07 - 03:46 PM (#1946947) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: John MacKenzie Well he seems to booked at every second Folk Festival I read about too. I sometimes wonder how new performers ever get a look in with the limited list of performers that do the rounds of these festivals. Giok |
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24 Jan 07 - 03:47 PM (#1946948) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: melodeonboy I've just been listening to it. Why does Lakeman adopt that silly singing style? Yes, I appreciate that he's very talented but that way of singing irritates me no end. I suffer similar irritation when I hear Sting singing. Could they be related in any way? |
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24 Jan 07 - 03:57 PM (#1946955) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer that's slightly unfair, Giok. I had a bunch of "usual suspects", but the revenue from the ticket sales they generate mean you can also book local and up-and-coming talent. The newer and local artists benefit from the audiences brought in by the big names - audiences who wouldn't necessarily come out to see a new band they didn't know, but who will happily go and see new things as part of a bigger festival experience. |
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24 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM (#1946962) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: John MacKenzie I know the reasons Ruthie, I still think it's unfair, and anyway there are too many festivals, bring back folk clubs ! Giok |
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24 Jan 07 - 04:07 PM (#1946967) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Sage I reckon that the reason that Seth Lakeman gets played a lot on the radio is threefold: he is talented, young and popular! I've been very depressed at the amount of negativity Seth has been getting. He might not be to your taste but he is to mine! He's a fine songwriter of folk songs and an exhilarating live performer. As to his vocal style, at least he makes a change from all those old farts who sing down their noses! Yes, there are many quality musicians and singers who don't get played on the radio but let's face it, mainsream radio has always been a lottery. That's why things like Radio Britfolk etc are so vital. If Mr Lakeman can turn a few ears toward folk music and get people exploring when they were once dismissive then he is doing an important job. Long mayhe flourish! |
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24 Jan 07 - 04:49 PM (#1947004) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Captain Ginger Talented, young and popular. The first two of those are qualities shared by quite a few singers and musicians, but the third would seem to be a factor belonging more to EMI than Seth Lakeman. Which is a shame, because his anodyne style and saccharine lyrics aren't to everyone's taste. I'd far rather three hours of Kate Rusby than three minutes of Seth Lakeman! |
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24 Jan 07 - 04:52 PM (#1947008) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: John MacKenzie That's what really worries me about so many of the popular acts in the "Folk Revival" [how many is that now?] They seem to be so anodyne, so, middle of the road, so lacking in individuality! Giok |
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24 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM (#1947011) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Gizmo Huh - Just tried the bbc website to find Mike Hardings show - It has disappeared. Does anyone know what has happenend to it? It has been there at this time before when I have checked, so why not now? Mike Harding has dissapeared from the BBC folk and country link, and any other link. |
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24 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM (#1947036) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: synbyn my only objection to seth lakeman is that he seems to be basing his music on rhythm rather than melody- some of us were discussing this outside the marquee at a summer festival- is it the drumloop culture? otherwise, who can object to the way he and his generation of musicians are drawing young people in- the only hope for we venerable old codgers is to sit on walls for tourists otherwise.... |
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24 Jan 07 - 05:57 PM (#1947076) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave No problem Ed, but I suspect you are missing the point. There are some important folk awards, coming up and there are four nominations for the traditional track. At this time of the year I would like to see the four nominees get reasonably equal air-time on the only Radio 2 programme that plays this sort of music. One hour per week. Once the awards are over I couldn't give a monkey's how much air-time Seth Lakeman gets on whatever programme that plays his music, and good luck to him. I have said many times that I think he is a talented lad, I have spent time with him and like him a lot. I wish him everything he wishes himself. And less of the codger, I accept the old!! |
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24 Jan 07 - 06:02 PM (#1947080) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Richard Bridge "songwriter of folk songs" A what? |
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25 Jan 07 - 05:03 AM (#1947385) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Big Al Whittle To be honest I've watched this phenomena half a dozen times in the last 20 or so years. And it why so little has come from the folk revival in the way of memorable songs lately. What saves us having to put up with it for long is the fact that the folk programmes always select someone young gifted and white; sod-all to say artistically and just about the musical talent to say it. Its a pity that we DON'T get to hear the best songs coming out of the folk clubs, but as they say in the Godfather, this is the business we are engaged in. Get used to it. Leave the guy alone - he's not going to come up with Streets of London, Blowing in the Wind or Dirty Old town. if someone does - like the Pogues, Tom Robinson or Jarvis Cocker did. they might get lucky and find another route. No use bothering with with it. |
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25 Jan 07 - 05:33 AM (#1947401) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Keith A of Hertford The show is on the site with listen again No playlist though. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/harding/playlist.shtml |
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25 Jan 07 - 06:21 AM (#1947435) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: stallion Keeping abreast of this White hare and awards thing is rather tiresome, is anyone really that bothered? By anyone I mean the vast "unwashed" who will hear the song / songs on their merits, maybe the "trad" part was really an excuse for not being Pop, maybe the said Seth is a closet folkie, not really come out yet. The reality is that bickering like this, thankfully here and not in public, is niether here nor there, if I have an agenda it is to get more people out singing and playing rather than listening and if the said Seth's song does then so be it. I also don't think that pouring vitriol over Mike Harding is helpful eg; There was once a pub called the John Bull in York, it is now a car park, I was working at the land owners house and asked why he pulled it down..."I suffered so much personal abuse from the 'Save the John Bull committee' that I was determined to have the place pulled down, actually, before the abuse started, I planned to find a landlord who would pay his rent.....etc" and it does go on and on. Point is, working with people is better than trying to fight them, and, if one doesn't like the result, start a Folk Awards scheme using existing organisations. Personally I don't give a stuff, perhaps there is something else going on here, an "ownership" thing, when the great "unwashed" request a folk song, typicaly Wild Rover and Black Velvet Band it is usually met with blank or at worst derision, so, if that is all they know and are trying to connect and belong why are they not allowed in? Having said all that I don't think that The White Hare should be in the category that it is in and it has brought the whole awards thing into disrepute, maybe the BBC ought to take a long look at it, they won't because it there is no commercial value to doing so. Peter |
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25 Jan 07 - 07:12 AM (#1947457) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Chorleybob Well said Stallion - especially the john bull story. I think there's always been an in-built resistance to any kind of wider success within the folk scene. Perhaps it goes back to the days of solidarity with the left and a suspicion that anyone who makes any money out of the music is an evil capitalist and therefore tainted. I don't for a minute doubt the sincerity of those who are busying themselves with the White Hare inquisition - but I do wonder who they're trying to destroy in the process and whether, in the end, it will do more harm than good. Maybe we shouldn't worry ourselves about how we appear to the wider world, but if I'm honest, I felt a twinge of embarrasment when I heard the stuff on the Feedback programme and then re-visited the threads on here. Singers like Seth Lakeman and Kate Rusby, love 'em or hate 'em , ( and I'm not keen to be honest)have brought in a sense of vibrancy to a scene that was quietly mouldering. I'm not an economist,nor a Thatercherite, but even I can see the benefits of the trickle down effect. We should be cheering them on - the singers and the awards - and not trying to throw marbles under them. |
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25 Jan 07 - 07:33 AM (#1947467) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave As the person who raised the issue on the "Feedback" programme I agree that Seth and Kate have brought vibrancy and life to the folk movement. You will not find me criticising Kate anywhere and I have made plenty of posts about her. I have spent time with and booked them both so it is not about them. Were I still active in that way on the folk scene I would probably do so again, and I recommended my daughter (who is active on the folk scene) that she book Seth Lakeman for her festival last year and she did so. I also recommended she booked him again this year. I am cheering the singers on as you suggest and have been cheering Seth and his brothers on since 1996 when I first came across them. Probably before most people had heard of them. So my track record in regard to that is pretty good. Nor is it really about Mike Harding - he has his agenda - and he is simply a presenter anyway. A difficult job and one that requires his undoubted talents. It is about the transparency of the Folk Awards and how they are decided. They are important because lots of money rides on them. This track not being traditional has squeezed out a track that was traditional. It is a strong category as John Leonard says, so there is every chance that the track squeezed out is a good one. There is a clear definition from the BBC (=Smooth Operations) as to what tracks fit into the "Traditional" category and the White Hare doesn't. I am not on my own - listen to Feedback again tomorrow - 1.30 pm Friday. |
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25 Jan 07 - 07:49 AM (#1947480) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Pete_Standing I've lifted this from a posting I made elsewhere ....but there are two issues here which I am not alone in thinking are important:- 1. The earning potential and survival of professional artists. 2. The credibility of the BBC R2 Folk Awards, the voters and Smooth Operations, who are responsible for the awards, the radio programme and the web site. Here is a quote from someone who has benefited from the awards:- "Make no mistake I'm as ambivalent about awards as anyone else. But I know too that winning Folk Awards can make a big difference to your career and profile. Winning three Folk Awards was the difference between selling 2-3000 albums or 20,000 and the difference between constructing month long English tours rather than slogging several hundred miles for a one off gig for no money." Someone at the PRS (who administers royalties in the UK) has expressed surprise that given the circumstances of the song that it qualifies as a trad song. Their interpretaion of trad is not as rigid as mine (or others) but they would consider that the person(s) that wrote the majority of the tune and melody would have had to have been dead for 70 years. When a dispute arises, a dedicated panel would listen to the material before making a judgement. I have no doubt that Seth is hard working, sincere and serious about his work and there is no denying that he has attracted people to folk and acoustic music which must be a good thing. He has, quite rightly, won many awards and will win many more, but the White Hare is more appropriate for an award of "Best Original Song" and not "Best Traditional" song. If we are to have categories, then surely scrutiny needs to be applied for the validity of a nomination. The livelihoods of many people in folk music rests on a thin and unknown future. That fifth entry could gain its performer some welcome opportunities either through being nominated or by winning the category. I thought the "trickle down" as advocated by the Thatcher era has since been discredited. But in any case, there is so little money washing around in folk music there would be precious little trickling down anyway. I know this because of my involvement with a club and festival. One of the most highly regarded musicians on the English scene once remarked that he could make more money as a postman - still it might have been nice to hear some traditional songs and tunes coming along the street in the morning. It is not Seth that is denying another person the opportunity afforded by a mention or an award at the coming beanfest, it is Smooth Ops, the Beeb and a seemingly clueless panel. |
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25 Jan 07 - 08:25 AM (#1947508) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: greg stephens The most interesting feature of current controversy is pointed up very well by the recent Folk Hibernia programme, and how different it was from Folk Britannia. What we are seeing now, in the Lakeman business, is the folk establishment in England having a good go at pushing the latest great young white hope on a largely indifferent public. Not an indifferent folk scene, they are quite happy: it is the public who are disengaged. Folk Hibernia, naturally, concentrated on the aspects of Irish folk that entered Irish culture centre stage. The list is as long as your arm. Go into any pub in Ireland, and you can chat about Chrity Moore, the Chieftains, Planxty, River Dance, Enya, Sean Keane, the Fyreys...take you pick. people will know what you are ytalking about. Pop into the Pig and Whistle in Lowere Snoring, Borsetshire, and try to chat about McColl, Rusby, Nic Jones, Seth lakeman, Waterson/Carthy: I dont think your conversation, on average, is going to be very informed. The Smooth Ops/Radio 2 approach to this is to play Lakeman and Rusby tracks. Whether this will turn the great British public onto folksong remains to be seen. The incontrovertible fact is that the British public know the Wild Rover, the Black Velvet Band, as I think was observed earlier in this thread. And the reason they know them is that the Dubliners sang them, and sang them very well. Maybe Seth Lakeman will get himself to the position of an icon of English cutlure, maybe he won't. But he's certainly nort there yet. And I can't see that Smooth Ops ludicrous shenanigans are going to get him there faster, rather the reverse I would gues ()though they do say any publicity is good publicity). |
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25 Jan 07 - 08:36 AM (#1947520) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie In answer to melodeon boy, 'Why does seth Lakeman adopt that ridiculous singing style, why shouldn't he sing however he likes? I can think of umpteen others who you could say have an unusual singing style, Peter Bellamy, Dick Gaughan, Vin Garbutt to name but three! it's just his style and you're looking for some shit to throw at him cos you don't like him! I don't know Seth Lakeman myself and have never seen him perform either but I do have a mate who knows him and says he's a nice chap! |
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25 Jan 07 - 08:46 AM (#1947525) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Hand-Pulled Boy Quite right Sir. People's culture usually depends on where they were born which for certain types of music can only be a 'backwater'. That's why the commercial people take the safe option. |
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25 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM (#1947579) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Lizzie Cornish Seth Lakeman is doing MORE for folk music than anyone has for a very long time....apart from Show of Hands of course! ;0) The thing that saddens me about 'the folk world', particularly the er...English Traditional part of it, is the amount of bitterness, anger, upleasantness, narrow mindedness and in my ever so humble opinion, sheer jealousy, that gets thrown at ANYONE who is remotely successful....or young! Perhaps it's because so many of the people within the Eng. Traddie world are er...over a certain age? Or perhaps it's merely because they were already old when they were young? Now being 51 and three quarters myself I can only say how EXCITING I find Seth's music, not just for his sheer musical ability and sparkle, but for the way he's blowing all those Miserable Old Pedantic Train Spotting Traddies right out of the water and bringing in younger people who have no musical prejudices whatsoever, no fences, no rules or regulations. Yup! Seth's bringing in young people don't stick their fingers in the ears, who don't bore the pants of people going on and on about "OooOOOOoooo The White Hare ISN'T traditional...so stop the world!", who don't stand for hours on a folk club floor singing 32 verses about a Ploughboy because their mother never told them to sit down and be quiet.......and who basically are there to have a bloody good time, enjoy themselves tremendously, find their own music and their roots, dance till they drop, thus defying many of the Moaning Minnie Festival Stewards who seem these days to work for 'The Ministry of 1984'....and bascially recognise Seth Lakeman's talent....which is outstanding! Thank GOD he is playing at so many festivals! Rock on Seth!!!!!!! Lizzie |
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25 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM (#1947586) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST Re- Irish folk culture + English folk culture....... Twas ever thus and it's a given that traditional irish music ("new" or old) is part of the culture, comes with Mother's Milk and isn't derided in the way that English folk music is. It's there to be celebrated and enjoyed in all its variation. The English folk scene has always had a rather forced ,self-consciousness about it : singing in silly voices with mannered diction, romanticising heavy labour , silly in-fightuing about what's traditional and what isn't, valueing the obscure over the popular etc.. If you peer into its history, you'll find more earnest polytechnic lecturers than horny-handed sons of toil. There's a body of thought that completely discredits Ewan Macoll as a fraud . These petty arguments have been raging since I started going to folk clubs in the seventies . It hasn't stopped me enjoying the music, but what a pity people can't loosen up and enjoy the music so all that hot air can be converted into something positive. While ever we grub around in the dirt settling old scores and squabbling, those tired old jokes about aran sweathers and fingers in the ear will continue to taint the folk scene's image and it will remain an enclave for buttoned-up, prissy old codgers. |
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25 Jan 07 - 10:22 AM (#1947593) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,ChorleyBob Well said Lizzie. I agree with everything you say. |
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25 Jan 07 - 10:37 AM (#1947615) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Paco Rabanne Good post Lizzie. Show of Hands, the true path! |
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25 Jan 07 - 12:05 PM (#1947717) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave What a shame Lizzie, that you seem to be unable to read previous posts without jumping into a thread with both feet. Virtually all the posts on this subject praise Seth. Even if they don't very few, if any, have a word to say against him. Certainly not me. Now Lizzie tell me, do you think any song you like can be described as Trad. and then reach the final of the Folk Awards in the "traditional track" category? If you had bothered to read the posts you would have read that the category for which Seth's song is for a new recording of a traditional song. Which the White Hare isn't. The White Hare as recorded by Martin Carthy, Joseph Taylor, the Watersons and others, is a completely different song. Had Seth recorded that song in a different version there would have been no complaint. Had his song been in the "contemporary track" category there would have been no complaints. And in answer to "why it matters" it has been said a dozen times on this and loads of other threads and message boards. Go read. Are you really over 50 years of age? You are wearing very well. Very well. |
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25 Jan 07 - 12:21 PM (#1947732) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST But Dave it doesn't matter. I think you and a few others have got a bit over-excited about it all. The Radio 4 lot at Feedback will be rubbing their hands with glee ...another chance to have a good laugh at the tragic folkies. |
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25 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM (#1947740) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave It does matter. Money for artists matters and the Folk Awards mean just that. Try asking an artist, and see if it matters. The emails I have received from artists have been confidential - but believe me none of them have said "Stop kicking up a fuss Dave - it doesn't matter". And I didn't start this - the "folkies" at Smooth Operations did. |
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25 Jan 07 - 12:59 PM (#1947780) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer Dave, people who come here to defend Seth and young folkies have clearly not read the threads. If they did, they would know that Seth has been roundly defended in this whole affair, and that the whole point is to make the folk awards more accessible to a wider range of young traditional performers, and to ensure that those future winners can be proud of their awards. The Seth anti-defamation brigade are either too lazy or too thick to find out the facts before engaging gob. I know which one my money's on. Best ignored, mate. |
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25 Jan 07 - 01:19 PM (#1947798) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Pete_Standing What is not at issue is Seth's value and importance in the resurgence of folk and acoustic music in this country - there can be no doubting his success. What is in question is the validity of one of his songs that was chosen by other people, not him, for inclusion in an award category. He will do well, I'm sure, at these awards and others too, and good luck to him. But please don't confuse the issues or doubt the value and importance of other artists working at the forefront. Would you still be feeling this way if one of your other favoured artists happened to be fifth placed in the nomination and therefore deprived of the recognition and possibly an award that could mean a more secure future? Is is great that kids can go and shake their ass to Seth. There will, no doubt, be occasions when listening to mother's advice will be appreciated at a concert too. |
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25 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM (#1947806) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Tim theTwangler Well actually there were a people who said not very nice things about the boy Lakeman. But it was a minority sort of a thing. I to used to go to the local folk club in the 70's and enjoyed it very much especially singers night. Have recently recieved a flyer from said club stating that if attendances dont improve it will be closing. We and a lot of our freinds could go to this folk club and presumably it would carry on. But the half dozen times we have persuaded others like us who wili get up and sing or play, to go along the tradies have made it very obvious that we are not welcome. In fact the main person who seems to organise everything was very dismissive of my own efforts as "oh its not traditional then" when she questioned me about one of my own compositions. Funny but before she stuck her oar in I had avery good reception for the song and a few were joining in. The arguement about the folk awards I can see has a point,as does anything were the rules are bent to fit a hidden agenda. If you insist that historical tunes and songs are worth saving or reviving feel free. If you want to be the folk monitors and lay down your own criteria for what is or isnt trad feel free. I write folk songs,I sing and play them and others want to do the same. Keep up your high standards and anal squabling and there will be no where left to play the music either the dusty dead mechaically recovered stuff or the stuff people will actually listen too. As I have said before on t'other threads will the last one to leave please turn out the lights! |
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25 Jan 07 - 01:43 PM (#1947808) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: bubblyrat Surely the BBC could get Seth Lakeman, or any other "contender" come to that, to sing one traditional song,accompanied,-- one traditional song unaccompanied---one contemporary song,by anyone, accompanied or not, and one of their own compositions,accompanied or not. That ought to satisfy everybody !!! |
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25 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM (#1947813) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo your own criteria for what is or isnt trad An impossibility. A tune or song is traditional or it isn't. It's a definition, not a value judgement. Trad has a specific meaning in copyright law as defined by the PRS. Tim The Twangler's ditties may be well-received or not. I have no idea as I've never heard them. But a singer-songwriter who throws his/her weight around in a venue which has a predominantly trad performance policy in such idiotically dismissive, sneering terms fully deserves being shown the door by the organiser. |
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25 Jan 07 - 02:40 PM (#1947874) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer Tim, there are lots of sessions and singarounds that welcome a wide variety of folk, singer/songwriter, acoustic, etc. The two sessions nearest me are exactly like that, and if I get up to sing an unaccompanied song I usually have several offers of guitar accompaniment (which is very sweet). Maybe you need to explore a few clubs and sessions and find one that feels right to you. We're talking about ONE award specifcally for traditional music - the only one that the BBC includes in the folk awards. Defending it does not equate to making value judgements or casting aspersions on the rest of folk and acoustic music. I agree that Seth Lakeman is doing an awful lot, through pop-tinged folk, to bring new audiences to the music which can only be a good thing. But when those new audiences have been around a while, some of them might want to explore the heritage of this music, see where it came from, get back to the source. That's what preserving the tradition is about. Not exclusivity, but protecting that heritage. For anyone and everyone who chooses to explore it. And if you never do, it doesn't make you a "bad folky" - well, not as far as I'm concerned, anyway. |
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25 Jan 07 - 02:57 PM (#1947892) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave I can take a totally different attitude to countess richard, and say that clubs ought tobe welcoming and tolerant of anything and anyone. But it doesn't matter because either way it is immaterial. If a club is closing it will not be the first or the last. Sheffield does not have a folk-song club within the city boundaries, in the sense of one that books guests and has floor singers, a raffle etc. Yet it has a vibrant folk scene, with many young people heavily involved in the music, and taste to suit just about anyone - died in the wool traddies, contemporary singer-song writers, Celtic, English etc. And a good dance scene. I am sure smaller places could have variants of this. Tim, why not start a club that suits your taste? Or a session in a pub? There is loads of advice for free - all you need to do is ask. Find a local pub and see if the land. Before Seth Lakeman got to this stage in his career he served a very long apprenticeship adjusting his music and taste as he has gone along. I can remember him complaining that he would never make it as a professional musician and that was ten years ago!! |
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25 Jan 07 - 03:16 PM (#1947916) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo Dave is of course right in saying that clubs shouls be welcoming and tolerant. But as any fule know, many are not and I have roundly condemned them here and elsewhere for being anything from cliquey and unfriendly to care in the community drop-in centres. It is not, however, in the slightest bit helpful for Tim The Twangler to tell his local club that he's not playing unless they do it his way. Dave's right again. Go and start your own. |
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25 Jan 07 - 03:26 PM (#1947923) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: AlexB Lizzie, as a mere babe just shy of 21, would you say that I have something against Seth because he is young and successful? Yet here I am, along with all these people of "a certain age" as you put it, who says that Seth's White Hare should not be in the trad category. I find your claims based on age to be quite frankly ignorant and age-ist. Personally, I don't like his music, although after hearing it several times the White Hare has grown on me, but my preference is neither here nor there. The fact is that Johm Leonard is undermining his own awards, awards that can be very important to some people. It is not about Seth. He is just got caught in the middle. |
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25 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM (#1947926) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: AlexB Er, he has just got caught in the middle, not he is. Teach me not to proof read what I write before posting. |
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25 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM (#1948101) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: George Papavgeris Seth is very talented, has done lots to bring vibrancy to the folk scene, and deserves several awards. This is not about Seth, Mad Person is right, the poor fellow has been caught in the middle. Neither is it about Mike Harding's or John Leonard's abilities. It is simply about an arbitrary (and accountable to no-one) process that allows a newly-written song with well-understood provenance to be labelled "traditional". It isn't even about squeezing some other worthy recording out of the competition. It is about that anoracky but oh, so important point that history can not be re-written. By anyone. There's a line in Pete Atkin's "Practical Man" that says "...there are just some songs that are not for sale". This should also hold for the label "traditional". My own home country's tradition thrives, and despite new songs constantly being written in traditional style (some great ones among them) there is no ambiguity as to what is traditional and what isn't. And no Greek would sell or buy that label for anything. I am somewhat surprised that some people here are willing to let go, because "it doesn't matter". Because in my book, it surely does. |
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26 Jan 07 - 03:29 AM (#1948360) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,ChorleyBob The difference is George, that the whole "trad" thing in english folk music is obfuscated by special interest groups, in-fighting, class war, people who are up themselves etc etc .....that no matter what anyone says, the definition is clouded by politics. I also think this row is being used as a smoke screen, almost like a legal tachnicality, to attack succesful young singers with attitude, Mike Harding,John Leonard and the Folk Awards. Just look back through the various threads and the level of bile is quite shocking. As I've said before, I don't think it does the folk scene's image any favours. |
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26 Jan 07 - 03:31 AM (#1948361) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Barden of England How right you are George. People should vent their feelings about the rape of 'Traditional music and song' toward the DCMS because of their draconian licensing system with regard to live music, not to some jumped up committee deciding to label something traditional. Which of the two is more important I would like to know. John Barden |
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26 Jan 07 - 03:42 AM (#1948365) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo successful young singers with attitude? Nah, there are far more glaring examples of what's wrong with dumbing music down the MOR path among moderately successful, dishevelled older performers not averse to the misleading tactic of labelling their songs with already existing trad titles. And who's attacking Harding, Leonard and the Smoothies under a smokescreen? Certainly not me. I give out open and transparent, wholly justified, constructive abuse every time . . . |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:09 AM (#1948377) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Sugwash Ah, the tall poppy syndrome. Seth's doing well, let's get him! It is my understanding that Seth put traditional (a dangerous weasel word, best left alone it seems) behind the White Hare because he felt that he had not so much written it as adapted it. I think we should applaud that; had he attributed it to S. Lakeman I have no doubt that the tumbrils od Mudcat would have been rumbling and many outraged posts would have been furiously knitted. It is also, in my opinion, slightly ludicrous to suggest that he has 'affected' a singing voice. I suppose what the folk world really craves is yet another Martin Carthy clone. Let us celebrate Seth for his success and originality in a navel-gazing genre that, in truth, often does little to deserve new talent. |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:16 AM (#1948381) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer "I also think this row is being used as a smoke screen, almost like a legal tachnicality, to attack succesful young singers with attitude, Mike Harding,John Leonard and the Folk Awards." Rubbish. What you'll find, over and over again, is people explaining patiently for those (like yourself) who clearly have not been paying attention, that this is NOT about Seth Lakeman's worth as an artist, nor about attacking the Folk Awards. I meet exciting, successful young singers (and musicians, and dancers) with attitude all the time. Love 'em. The folk scene would die without them, and more power to their collective elbow. That includes Seth, especially for introducing more young people to folk. Some of the people commenting here have known Seth since he was a kid, know his parents, know he's a lovely lad, and have respect for his considerable talents (you can do that without the music necessarily being to your taste). This argument is about a specific issue over a specific award, and a song that is not eligible for its category. Simple as. I had no particular problem with Smooth Ops before this all started, but have been consistently appalled over the arrogance with which the company, which is subcontracted by the BBC and so has SOME level of public accountability, has responded to a perfectly legitemate complaint. And many of us have expressed, ad infinitum, that what we want is for the Folk Awards to BE successful, and to be the best representation of the genre that they can be. And for each award to simply do what it says on the tin. This is not about tearing them down, it's about trying to make them better. Bloody hell, what's not to understand? "People should vent their feelings about the rape of 'Traditional music and song' toward the DCMS because of their draconian licensing system with regard to live music." Who says we're not doing that as well, John? |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:29 AM (#1948385) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Barden of England I'm not saying we aren't Ruth, but I just wish the energy put into this was channeled in that direction. Will anybody rattle the cage on the night I wonder? Will anybody say that the licensing laws are damaging our tradition? That will be so much better than all the bickering going on here. George Papavgeris was quite right - what he said about Greek music certainly hit a chord with me, as do his songs. John Barden |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:30 AM (#1948386) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: George Papavgeris Sugwash, I think you have misunderstood the motives of Folkiedave, Ruth Archer, myself and others. Please read my post a few lines above. I (we) repeat: This is not about Seth in the slightest. Indeed, had Seth called it an original song, we'd have been happier - me for one, certainly. But it's not even about what Seth called the song. Let me say it once more clearly: It's about the SmoothOps-led process that mistakenly categorised the song as "traditional", and the subsequent SmoothOps attempt at justifying this action in ways that kept deepening the hole they found themselves in; because SmoothOps should have known better. To simply say now "let it go, it's not that important" is effectively giving SmoothOps licence to rewrite history. It may not be "1984", but it is the thin end of the wedge all the same, when commercial interests - or anyone, come to that - can dictate to the masses what their heritage is. And the fact that the masses themselves may not give a hoot does not excuse it. |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:32 AM (#1948388) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: George Papavgeris John, as Ruth says, we can do both. Indeed, yesterday I signed the online petition to Number 10 about the detrimental effect of the new licencing laws on live music. I don't have the URL handy, perhaps someone else has. |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM (#1948390) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave How dare you!? I have written dozens of letters, press releases and appeared on local radio and newspapers highlighting the issue of licensing. As a protagonist in the Licensing Debate, I succeeded in persuading Sheffield City Council to license the whole of the streets of Sheffield - as bounded by the Inner Ring Road - licensed for public entertainment. Saved individual groups including traditional dance groups the problem of licensing. In Sheffield, carols are regarded as religious services around Christmas time. This now allows a tradition to go ahead without hindrance. This was the result of "folkies" pressing the local council. How on earth do you think the permission for Morris dancers was put into the Act? We may not have succeeded in everything but don't accuse people of not trying. I'm turning my attention to people who can't be bothered to read what people have written next. The campaign starts here!! |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:35 AM (#1948391) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo No-one here is, as far as I can see, 'out to get Seth', though 'out to get the Smoothies, yes certainly. Speaking for myself, I don't particularly like Seth's approach or singing (yelpy register swapping and fiddle abuse are not to my taste) but recognise that he's good at what he does for those who like that sort of thing. The entire point is that The White Hare ought to have been attributed to him as a self-written song (as it is on the single but not on the two versions of Freedom Fields). Then it might have been rather less likely that the panel of 'experts' would not have confused the song (whether or not they actually listened to it, which seems unlikely) with the entirely different traditional song of the same title. The criteria for Best Traditional Track, as defined by the Smoothies/R2 themselves, is freely available and has been reproduced several times in the course of these threads. The White Hare clearly does not meet them. Seth has offered to withdraw the song's nomination to that category but Smoothops declined. A big mistake. |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:36 AM (#1948394) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Pete_Standing Time and again I see messages on forums from "newbies" who have found music via people like Seth and want to know more. He and others have also inspired people to start playing too. Irrespective of the collective or disparate styles, these new icons of folk ought to be applauded for encouraging new audiences. The Beeb, Smooth Ops and the panel of experts owe it to these new kids on the folk block and the performers who have inspired it all, to get it right - even more so as peoples reputations and livelihoods rest on these awards. There is no shame in having a tradition and an emerging body of new work. Both are valid, both have examples of songs we treasure and some we would prefer to forget and there is no shame in knowing, wanting to know and wanting to preserve the distinction too. It is a broad church and I love it. OK Seth is getting a hard time from saddos like me. He has become an unfortunate kicking boy in the silly posturing by notables, sycophants and know it alls. Sorry Seth. |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:51 AM (#1948408) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Barden of England I have already signed the petition George, so no worry. Folkie Dave - there is no malice meant by my post, and I am grateful for your sterling work. A big well done from me for one. My good friend Richard Bridge along with Hamish Birchall have also done much in this regard. I'm just trying to say that all this bickering about some committee (not Seth himself) putting a label on something leaves me a bit speechless. It's nit picking on the scale of a playground scrap and not worthy of most of the people that post here. John Barden |
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26 Jan 07 - 04:59 AM (#1948416) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave See what I mean about people reading threads? ohn the reason why it is above the level of a playground scrap has been explained at least a dozen times. It isn't about a committee labelling something. This is why I am now leading a campaign to get people to read threads first before posting. Now John go read a few threads, particularly the one where a professional singer explains why the Folk Awards are important to professional singers and come back and call it a playground scrap. |
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26 Jan 07 - 05:04 AM (#1948420) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Scrump Another 5p's worth from me (there seem to be several threads on this issue, and I've had my say elsewhere, but then so have most other people here). Firstly, I agree with those who seek to defend Seth Lakeman from the scathing attacks by some people in this and other threads. Those who don't like him or his music or singing style for whatever reason are using the "White Hare" issue as an excuse to attack him. These people are entitled to their views, but they are diverting attention from the issue that concerns the rest of us, namely the nomination of a non-traditional song for the "best traditional track" category in the BBC Folk Awards. I happen to like Seth, and have seen him live several times, and I've thoroughly enjoyed him and his band's gigs. He isn't an overnight success by any means, and is talented and hard working (why do you think he appears at so many festivals, on TV and radio shows, etc.? Because to quote George above, he "puts in the hours". [One good quote deserves another, George :-)]). If some of the people who moan that he has passed them by, would try following his example instead of whingeing about their lot, maybe they would get somewhere themselves. Yes, I wrote a parody song which pokes fun at him and his song, but Seth is not the target of the song. The target is Smooth Ops' John Leonard, who seems stubbornly incapable of seeing that, even by his own definition given on R4 last week, Seth's song "White Hare" is not a traditional song, and should not be included in the traditional song nominations. This is the only important issue with the Folk Awards as far as I'm concerned. I happen to like a lot of the artists that are regularly played on R2. I realise there are many other deserving artists that ought to be up there with them, but that doesn't mean the favoured ones are rubbish (again, we all have our likes and dislikes). But that's another issue and I don't want to get into that here. I would feel the same if (as suggested in another thread), say, Martin Carthy or John Kirkpatrick had one of their own songs entered for the 'traditional' category. It's just plain wrong, and as some say above, it's an important principle. If the BBC/SMooth Ops can get away with this, what next - James Blunt's latest effort being voted best traditional song? I could go on but I think that's enough for now. |
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26 Jan 07 - 05:07 AM (#1948422) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo Sigh. The criteria for Best Traditional Track, as published by Smoothops, is as follows: The best performance of any traditional song or tune on CD released during the past 12 months. This is a category designed to recognise the work of people recording traditional material. It is to be a new recording of a traditional song, from any tradition. If that leaves John Barden speechless, so be it. Actually, it renders me a little bit that way too, though for reasons unconnnected with whatever I may or may not think of Mr Lakeperson but because of doubts about the competence of the so-called panel of experts and even more so after the sheer pig-headed arrogance of John Leonard and the rest of his Smoothies. They (not Seth) have brought the Folk Awards into disrepute. As peeps would know if they could be arsed to keep up and read the thread. |
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26 Jan 07 - 05:17 AM (#1948427) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Barden of England I can assure you Folkiedave that I have read this thread and am quite aware of what the Folk Awards mean financially to professional singers. It's not that I'm refering to if you read my posts and I just don't understand how you know that I'm not reading the treads. Please enlighten me John Barden |
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26 Jan 07 - 05:25 AM (#1948434) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave Actually there are very very few people attacking Seth, and there are far more positive posts about him, even from those who are not fond of his music. For certain he has served a long apprenticeship and has become an overnight success over the last ten years or so. Just about everyone and certainly the main protagonists on this and other boards agree it is not about Seth. As people patiently explain over and over again, it is about the process. Now I am just getting a case of bottle-conditioned beers in and inviting some friends around to listen to "Feedback" at 1.30 pm. In the hopes they mention Scrump's song "Bonny White Hare". (Blatant plug) |
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26 Jan 07 - 05:26 AM (#1948435) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Barden of England Ah - so it's all about definition then. Can anybody help me with the definition of beauty? |
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26 Jan 07 - 05:32 AM (#1948438) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Barden of England I'm certainly not having a go about Seth. I like what he and his contemporaries do and have no qualms in saying that. I just don't understand the bickering about criteria etc. John Barden |
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26 Jan 07 - 05:40 AM (#1948441) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Scrump Now I am just getting a case of bottle-conditioned beers in and inviting some friends around to listen to "Feedback" at 1.30 pm. In the hopes they mention Scrump's song "Bonny White Hare". (Blatant plug) If they do, have a drink for me, Dave. And be sure to let me know. I'll probably have to listen to it later (or 'again' as the BBC would have it) :-) |
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26 Jan 07 - 05:54 AM (#1948447) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave The problem with defining beauty as defined by Smooth Ops is it changes once you have got one. I just don't understand the bickering about criteria etc. That much is obvious from your posts. Now if you seek enlightenment and the path to eternal happiness go read a few threads. Here on Mudcat, BBC Message Board, TalkaWhile etc.....There is plenty of information out there telling you what the bickering is about. Of course if that is to much trouble, keep posting in ignorance. From the CTGPTRTBMP Campaign To Get People To Read Threads Before Making Postings |
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26 Jan 07 - 06:00 AM (#1948452) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Barden of England Now, now Folkiedave. Ignorance is bliss, a little knowledge is harmful and too much knowledge is downright dangerous. John Barden |
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26 Jan 07 - 06:24 AM (#1948463) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: George Papavgeris Dave, John, come on, kiss and make up. No tongues though! |
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26 Jan 07 - 06:27 AM (#1948464) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Barden of England No problems with that George - my only problem is Jan insists no tongues either :-). No offence is ever meant Folkiedave. John Barden |
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26 Jan 07 - 07:03 AM (#1948498) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Brian Peters The meaning of "traditional" is actually very important to musicians who spend their careers interpreting that kind of material. When we're talking about an award SPECIFICALLY DEDICATED to the performance of said traditional material, on the flagship national radio programme devoted to folk music, then to describe the dispute as "nit picking on the scale of a playground scrap" is frankly insulting. ChorleyBob, said: "I also think this row is being used as a smoke screen, almost like a legal technicality, to attack succesful young singers with attitude". But surely most of the 'young singers with attitude' (and bags of musical talent come to that) who are setting our festivals on fire are doing precisely the kind of interpretation of traditional material that this award is supposed to celebrate. Or does that mean they're "up themselves" (your words, Bob) as well? |
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26 Jan 07 - 07:11 AM (#1948501) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: greg stephens I hope more musicians might come out publicly in this controversy, on whichever side they choose. A lot of people are worried about identifying themselves. So far I have spotted Brian peters, George Papavgeris and Tom Bliss, and myself, making their feelings known. I hope others will to(or perhaps already have, I have no real knowledge of where such dicsussions happen on the net). Judging by those named individuals I refer to, it would still seem John Leonard is in a minority of one on the whole question. |
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26 Jan 07 - 07:50 AM (#1948523) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Scrump Yes, greg, JL is in a minority of one, and that is the point. I don't know if it matters whether the people who object to his stubborn refusal to back down on this point are musicians themselves or not. The principle is easy for anybody to understand (except, seemingly, JL), even if they know nothing about folk music at all. (I'm a musician but nowhere near well-known enough to make it worthwhile 'coming out' from your point of view :-)) |
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26 Jan 07 - 08:15 AM (#1948541) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: BB There are times when I could hug you, Brian! I don't always say a lot (on this forum anyway), but you always seem to hit the nail on the head and echo my thoughts exactly. Thank you! Barbara |
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26 Jan 07 - 08:27 AM (#1948552) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Brian Peters Mmm, yes please, Barbara! Re. Greg's point, I find very encouraging that songwriters of the calibre of George and Tom are so vocal in defending the concept of "traditional song". It's not just the old finger-in-ear stereotypes, you know.... |
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26 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM (#1948630) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Keith A of Hertford The only issue picked up on Feedback was the question of whether less royalties could be earned from a trad. designation. It was conceded that was not true, but argued that he would not earn as much in royalties if other artists recorded it subsequently. End of discussion. No mention at all of how the song could not reasonably be described as traditional at all. |
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26 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM (#1948662) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave Yes it is a shame. They do things differently on Radio 3..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/worldmusic/a4wm2007/audience_award.shtml Fancy letting the audience vote - what do they know!! |
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26 Jan 07 - 10:48 AM (#1948681) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Scrump The only issue picked up on Feedback was the question of whether less royalties could be earned from a trad. designation. It was conceded that was not true, but argued that he would not earn as much in royalties if other artists recorded it subsequently. End of discussion. No mention at all of how the song could not reasonably be described as traditional at all. That's very disappointing, to say the least. Does that mean that more people were concerned about the loss of future royalties to Seth Lakeman than whether his song is traditional or not? How does that square with the fact that on the single, it is credited to him as the author, with no mention of "trad arr"? |
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26 Jan 07 - 11:41 AM (#1948742) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: greg stephens Unfortunately, Feedback only picked up on one of my points(the more boring one). they didn't mention my more significant beef: which was that listeners had been deceived into thinking it was relevant all that PRS stuff, whereas in fact it was irrlevant, because S Lakeman had in fact withdrawn the "trad" claim monthss ago. As John Leonard knows perfectly well. but managed to imply the opposite rather neatly, as a glance at the transcript shows. Strange, the game he is playing. issuing a slow drip drip of easily refutable staements, and then modifying them when challenged. He could easily have dealt with this whole thing when it came up way before Christmas. How come he is prolonging it like this? |
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26 Jan 07 - 11:54 AM (#1948756) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave Because the Albino Bunny won the vote - which had to be in by the middle of December - and now they are totally embarrassed. Good. But we are in a dilemma - and JL knows this. If we kick up too big a stink then all we do is harm the music we love. So we tend not to. Many of the press we would have to deal with are not past the folk is done by "people who wear aran-sweaters, have fingers in their ear, tankards hanging off their belts and long beards". And that is just the women....... |
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26 Jan 07 - 12:05 PM (#1948765) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: George Papavgeris I don't see how we can harm the music we love by kicking up a stink. We're in a world where no publicity is bad publicity. "Keeping it quiet" simply allows other voices to be heard. Nah, let the stink fly, I say |
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26 Jan 07 - 12:09 PM (#1948771) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Scrump Quite right George. Let stinking commence! :-) |
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26 Jan 07 - 12:17 PM (#1948783) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Fiona There is one section of the award voted for by the audience, for 'Favourite Folk Track of All Time', it still looks to be open here. Folk Award audience vote Last year it was for Best Dance Act and Whapweasel won, the year before Best Live Act and SHow of Hands won. fx |
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26 Jan 07 - 12:29 PM (#1948801) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: greg stephens The "White Hare" is heavily tipped for that one, Fiona. |
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26 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM (#1948822) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Fiona lol greg. Actually I think it'll be Show of Hands 'Roots' if one of the old Fairport ones doesn't get it. I voted for Dick Gaughan, he never wins anything at these awards, I said if he didn't get a lifetime achievement on this year I would stand outside and pelt them with deep fried mars bars, I'm testing batter recipes for extra sharp edges... fx |
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26 Jan 07 - 02:03 PM (#1948901) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo Ahem. This thread is about the specific nomination of the Lakeperson's ditty The White Hare for the Trad Track Award. Nothing to do with the audience vote for whatever it was. I dread to imagine what DG's reaction might be to a nomination for one of these discredited gongs. Though I'd like to see him throw it back at John Leonard. |
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27 Jan 07 - 08:59 AM (#1949546) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Fiona To answer Folkiedaves original question, it's hard to say as the playlists aren't archived but I think he played the 'White Hare' before Christmas and again the other week, but I must say I thought playing it the other week was a bit of a piss take because of all the complaints. I'd say he's played 'The Colliers' from Freedom Fields way more. He's played Salsa Celticas 'Grey Gallito' several times but not in the past few weeks, The van Eyken & Drever ones not so much, I remember him mentioning Kris Drever had won the Scots Trad Award and playing something but I don't think it was 'Green Grows The Laurel'. On the show where he announced the nominations he played little bits of everything. I wonder if the host at the beeb could be persuaded to release the playlists? fx |
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27 Jan 07 - 01:41 PM (#1949776) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave It would be nice Fiona - but the hosts at the BBC, are the same people who run the message boards - who run the Mike Harding Show, who run the Folk Awards. I am not going to name any names, far too polite for that, let's just call them Smooth Operations for now. |
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27 Jan 07 - 03:08 PM (#1949848) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer SoH Roots for Favourite Folk Track of All Time?! Christ, please say I just dreamed that. I wish he'd have played Tim VE's Barleycorn as many times as it deserved - easily the stand-out track of the year, if not several years. |
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28 Jan 07 - 07:01 AM (#1950235) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Lizzie Cornish >>>SoH Roots for Favourite Folk Track of All Time?! Christ, please say I just dreamed that.<<< That's a pretty unpleasant thing to say. Couldn't pick a better song in my opinion. 'Roots' sums up so very much of what we've *allowed* to be thrown away in this country, through such appalling apathy. "We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England......" Lizzie |
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28 Jan 07 - 07:16 AM (#1950242) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer I don't really think of SoH as a folk band, which is the reason it is rather anethema to me that a song like Roots should win favourite folk track of all time. Theytt are a rock-pop band with some folk influences. It is also a very recent song. But as their Teenage Fanclub on HRT will no doubt be voting like crazy, it probably will win, in the same way that people like Robbie Williams often top the polls for Most Influential Artist of All Time. Completely skewed and not at all representative, but telling about the sorts of people who indulge in repetitive voting. "We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England......" yeah - but happily the insurance will cover most of it, eh? Have you stocked up on the Age Renew makeup and face glitter, Lizzie? |
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28 Jan 07 - 07:23 AM (#1950249) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo Roots is a dreary, whining rant offering no more solutions than Country Life did, but with more socially divisive overtones. Even some of those who normally see some merit in the SoH output (myself included) are saying that. Musically, it's a dirge. A demo went out before release to an online radio programme which was, apparently, at the wrong speed. Granted, this made it sound marginally worse than it actually is but the funniest thing was how it prompted lizziecornish to screech at everyone: 'surely you don't think it's supposed to sound like that?' It's still dire. TVE doing Barleycorn though; I might even switch on MH to listen to that if he ever played it. |
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28 Jan 07 - 07:30 AM (#1950255) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer Look out for the next issue of English Dance and Song, Diane. The Singer, Song and Source article will feature Tim van Eyken, John Barleycorn and Fred Jordan. Such a great interpretation of the song - even amongst some other great versions, like Martin Carthy's and Jim Causley's. Fantastic stuff. |
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28 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM (#1950261) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Fiona Folkiedave have you tried e-mailing the Mike Harding Show and asking them? I do listen to it most weeks but he doesn't seem to favour Seth Lakeman especially and I don't go for the conspiracy theory either, but I do understand that some folk are upset by it. We have a running joke about his Kate Rusby bias on the beeb messageboard but I don't think she's up for any awards at all this year. Funnily enough he played a new re-mix of 'Roots' with crowd singing and such the week before last. ~~~ getting out my spirtle~~~ He has played an awful lot of Bellowhead recently though.... fx |
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28 Jan 07 - 07:44 AM (#1950267) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Dave Hanson I seriously have to wonder if Lizzle Cornish has ever heard any real folk music if she thinks wannabee pop band SOH and the latest boy wonder Seth Lakeman are representative of English folksong, they are both soft pop FFS eric |
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28 Jan 07 - 08:03 AM (#1950282) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Keith "Roots is a dreary, whining rant...but with more socially divisive overtones". It is those potentially socially divisive overtones in some of the lyrics that have bothered me about "Roots" from the first time I heard it. Well, that and that it paints an overpessimistic image of modern British life. There are about 9 other tracks on "Witness" I prefer to it and there are even more in the rest of the Steve Knightley songbook. |
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28 Jan 07 - 09:18 AM (#1950326) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Keith "I don't really think of SoH as a folk band, which is the reason it is rather anathema to me that a song like Roots should win favourite folk track of all time. They are a rock-pop band with some folk influences" Well I do think of SoH as a "folk" band, admittedly with rock edges. However if any song from the last couple of years were to win "Best Folk Song Of All Time" I would be inclined to think that people have been letting what they've just heard influence them too much. The phenomenon is often very marked when people draw up best of the year lists with a large dollop of November/December releases in. |
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28 Jan 07 - 09:41 AM (#1950337) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer That's part of the the point I was trying to make with the Robbie Williams analogy, Keith. You can't really get perspective on the influence or significance of a song, album or artist until it's been around for a wee while and has had time to find its context, as it were. |
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28 Jan 07 - 09:51 AM (#1950341) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: greg stephens Record companies pay students a bit of pin-money to set up new email addresses from which to bombard radio programmes with fake requests, and "Listeners' Awards" schemes with fake votes. It is sad, but not really a situation anyone could do much about. The trouble is, once one company starts up this sort of thing, other performers feel pressured to do the same, and soon everyone's at it. If anybody has a theory how to deal with this kind of thing, let's hear it! I know people will instantly call me a conspiracy theorist for daring to suggest such behaviour occurs. Well, i assure you it does. |
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28 Jan 07 - 09:55 AM (#1950344) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Keith "That's part of the the point I was trying to make with the Robbie Williams analogy, Keith. You can't really get perspective on the influence or significance of a song, album or artist until it's been around for a wee while and has had time to find its context, as it were". Agreed! Seth Lakeman is actually Robbie Williams minus the tattoos, both in looks and also in vocal range. Strangely Robbie has demonstrated an ability to write in a rather wider range styles, but that might just be his choice of collaborators. I do however think the evidence so far is that Seth has considerably more sense! |
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28 Jan 07 - 09:59 AM (#1950349) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer And a lot less attitude. And is a sweet kid. |
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28 Jan 07 - 10:06 AM (#1950355) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Keith Seth is with Johnnie Walker this afternoon on BBC Radio Two between 4:30pm and 6:30pm. My guess is he'll get about 30 minutes like Show of Hands did 2 weeks ago. |
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28 Jan 07 - 12:36 PM (#1950462) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Lizzie Cornish From er...Ruth Archer >>>>I don't really think of SoH as a folk band, which is the reason it is rather anethema to me that a song like Roots should win favourite folk track of all time. Theytt are a rock-pop band with some folk influences. It is also a very recent song. But as their Teenage Fanclub on HRT will no doubt be voting like crazy, it probably will win, in the same way that people like Robbie Williams often top the polls for Most Influential Artist of All Time. Completely skewed and not at all representative, but telling about the sorts of people who indulge in repetitive voting. "We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England......" yeah - but happily the insurance will cover most of it, eh? Have you stocked up on the Age Renew makeup and face glitter, Lizzie? <<<< Echoes of Loughborough fill my head here. ;0) Now then Sweet Pea... Thank you for your kind message. First of all I have my glitter on as I type this to you...and very sparkly it is too! I Love it! ;0) Secondly....Are you serious????? Age Renew make-up???? Heck Ruthie Baby, I'm a Show of Hands Chick, I don't need that...but I tell you what..I did get some money-off vouchers for "Gee You Sound Old And Crabby' cream in Boots the other day, so if you'd like to send me your address....I'll forward it on to you. I've heard it's particularly good for downward pointing wrinkles around the mouth area, often favoured by those Anti-Show of Hands Lasses out there...I always like to lend a helping hand to those of er...a somewhat Emotionally Wrinkled Disposition. ;0) And now...to the more serious points of your post.... The Anti Show of Handers are still recovering from the fact of course, that on the first ever Public Vote in the Folk Awards, Show of Hands WON Best Live Act. Smooth Ops then had to change the Public Vote System to something more er...obscure where Show of Hands wouldn't be known about, such as Best Singer With Finger In Ear....Best Person Able To Talk About Cecil Sharp's Underwear Whilst Standing On One Leg...Best Person Able To Bore People Rigid With 52 Verses Of A Child Ballad etc....and on top of that..well....all hell broke loose on the messageboards didn't it! Chuckle! Whoopeeee Smiley!! :0) "It was fixed!" they cried..."Transport them!" "There can surely be only ONE or TWO pathetic Show of Hands fans out there and therefore they must have voted a million times over!" was heard around the gardens of Cecil Sharp House....... And still The Show of Hands Spin is going on now...but this time 'they've' started it BEFORE Show of Hands have even won ANYTHING! Oh...Isn't this lovely! I LOVE IT! Great Big Grin Smiley!! :0) Now then...repeat after me Ruthie Baby.. "The reason Show of Hands win Public Votes is because they have a huge amount of er...PUBLIC who vote for them and those thousands of people vote for them just one time each..and it truly is not just one fan who votes a thousand times over" Show of Hands are way beyond needing to do anything like that....take it from one who's seen the way their audience has just grown and grown and continues to grow all the time...Heck I even had to travel from Sidmouth to Truro recently to see them, because I left it too late for both of their Exeter gigs, which sold out almost immediately! Still...I got my tickets for their third Royal Albert Hall gig early....I'm not silly! :0) Yup! Isn't that AMAZING! The World's Most Wonderful Wandering Minstrels, who've worked their backsides off, for the last 15 years or more, gathering their fans around them, writing songs that bring in thousand upon thousand of people, getting people to openly share their music with their blessing.....who are funny, entertaining, highly professional, warm, welcoming and incredibly supportive and helpful to young folk acts...are actually LOVED and hugely supported by their public! Show of Hands fans aren't Teenagers on HRT, although I'm seeing more and more young people at their gigs these days and Steve Knightley went down as sensationally as Seth did at Exeter Uni a few weeks back, where nearly the entire audience was young people..They LOVED Steve's songs...particularly Roots! Neither are Show of Hands fans Apathetic Trainspotters. They may not know the order that Cecil collected his songs in...they may not even care...BUT they recognise two incredibly talented musicians when they see and hear them. They recognise also that their music should damn well be everywhere...AND they also recognise that Show of Hands, along with Seth Lakeman, whom Show of Hands supported for years...and still do...are doing HUGE amounts to bring people into FOLK music and they WILL support them. I KNOW! Isn't that AMAZING????? AND....Steve and Phil are bringing them in Dancing and Smiling...and sometimes Ranting too, because of the power of their songs! YUP! Not only that, but so very many of their fans go on to discover vast amounts of other folk/acoustic musicians from there. Take a look over at the Show of Hands fansite, Longdogs, and you'll find many, many other musicians talked about and discussed on there...You'll also find many musicians in there too, who are Longdogs themselves. I'm afraid that Steve and Phil are a bit of a Folk Phenomenon. Wanted by the major festivals in this country, because they know that where Show of Hands are...so too are the crowds...and those crowds absorb plenty more artists around them when they come to the festivals..and so Folk Music grows and gets spread around and made stronger...for our children and for theirs.. Of course, perhaps the only festival that may not choose Show of Hands could possibly be Loughborough, as a certain Miss Crumpet, who runs that, apparently would rather have 'pins stuck in her eyes' than go to one of their gigs....A shameful thing that she chose to write on the BBC board. Shameful WHOEVER it had been written about in my opinion. But..best to move on from that dreadful remark.... From Eric The Red: >>>>I seriously have to wonder if Lizzle Cornish has ever heard any real folk music if she thinks wannabee pop band SOH and the latest boy wonder Seth Lakeman are representative of English folksong, they are both soft pop FFS<<< Helloooo Dave! :0) No, you can't come round and borrow my Bob Fox, Jez Lowe, Barry Lister, George Papavgeris, John Tams, Duncan McFarlane, Nic Jones, Eliza Carthy or Demon Barbers CDs or any of the others either..no matter how much you beg me Dave! Chuckle!! ;0) Oh and Dave...ALL of those artists, and many more, have come to me PURELY because of my finding Show of Hands music at Sidmouth that time. And as for 'Roots'.....well....every single word of that rings true to me. Perhaps you have to live in The West Country to see how our roots have been destroyed....and also to see how hard Steve, Phil and Seth are working to help plant new seeds...making new roots come up through those old ones...and bringing some knowledge of those roots BACK to the people of The West Country. Oh...and if anyone wants to take me on over Roots...please...be my guest. ;0) Lizzie :0) |
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28 Jan 07 - 12:56 PM (#1950481) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Scrump I don't think any of this SOH-bashing is very helpful as regards the removal of Seth Lakeman's White Hare from the Best Traditional Track nominations. Let's get the thread back on topic please folks! |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM (#1950489) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: greg stephens MMM Lizzie Cornish likes Show of Hands. I like the Kinks. is this particularly relevant to any discussion here? |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:07 PM (#1950490) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Ruth Archer *yawn* So, have you told your husband about Sam yet, Lizzie? When are you emigrating? |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:09 PM (#1950493) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Fiona Apologies from me Scrump et al, I should have known better than to mention them. As for the 'White Hare', I really don't think MH favours Seth in any way, I think the Celtic Connections set was a coincidence. I was sorry that it wasn't a bit of the concert he did with Karine Polwart tbh, I'd have been interested to hear some of that one. I had a look at Seths site, I don't think many of his fans care much one way or the other, however the website says he's playing at the Folk Awards (I'll put my spirtle away now). Has anyone e-mailed Smooth Ops to ask for the recent playlists? fx |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:11 PM (#1950496) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Lizzie Cornish Quite right Scrump...Roots needs it's own thread...Great Idea! :0) |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:19 PM (#1950505) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo No. Nor is the fact that lizziecornish happened to see SoH one day in Sidmouth the sole ROUTE to discovering other artists. LC (like Mr Route) lives in Sidmouth and could therefore have found them at any time, whether during the first week in August or at any other nearby venue, of which there are many. It is my understanding that before moving to Sidmouth she lived on Dartmoor yet was entire unaware of the wealth of trad music in the surrounding villages. Nor does she appear to know anything about the long history of Herga in Harrow from whence she came. Perhaps she should have called the Beer/Knightley helpline earlier. Much earlier. |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM (#1950509) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo . . . or even the Albion Chronicles and asked Sam. |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:37 PM (#1950529) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave Fiona, I wrote to both Mike Harding and SO. MH replies if and when he feels like it. SO responded with two fingers on its web page first of all and an email from John Leonard drawing attention to his reply on the BBC Message Board. We know JL will not give in - he has decided that the Albino Bunny meets the criteria for a traditional track with reference to the BBC Folk Awards, when it clearly doesn't. I don't think a letter from me will make his change his mind. Ill maybe catch up with him at a festival or somewhere. You may have better luck of course. And I agree, SOH should have its own thread and I am pleased to see it looks as if it now has two! |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:42 PM (#1950533) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Lizzie Cornish >>>And I agree, SOH should have its own thread and I am pleased to see it looks as if it now has two! <<< :0) :0) :0) |
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28 Jan 07 - 01:43 PM (#1950534) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Fiona I'll have a go too Dave, I'll let you know if they reply. fx |
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28 Jan 07 - 02:02 PM (#1950548) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo Forfuckssake who cares how many times MH plays the albinobunny track (always from the original FF CD which is the least awful)? If he isn't playing that he'd only be playing krusby or some Americana. What matters is that the Smoothies have dug their heels in and decided to try and brazen out their monumental cock-up in allowing such a ridiculous nomination to stand. Everybody in the entire world (except the FA's executive producer) knows without a shadow of doubt that TWHINATT and fails to qualify for Best Trad Track under their own published criteria. |
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28 Jan 07 - 02:03 PM (#1950550) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,staceymcmullen lakemen is cack from another young folk musician |
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28 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM (#1950627) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave Seth Lakeman is not a young musician. He was a young musician ten years ago. |
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28 Jan 07 - 03:36 PM (#1950631) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: The Borchester Echo Yes, indeed. The Lakepersons Boy Band was dead good. Equation was definitely not so good and the Seth wannabe popstar is not an improvement. Nice bloke though. |
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29 Jan 07 - 04:26 AM (#1951000) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST,Keith "...he doesn't seem to favour Seth Lakeman especially and I don't go for the conspiracy theory either, but I do understand that some folk are upset by it. We have a running joke about his Kate Rusby bias on the beeb messageboard but I don't think she's up for any awards at all this year". Mrs McCusker may not be nominated for any awards this year but Mr Rusby is (Best Musician)! |
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29 Jan 07 - 05:52 PM (#1951683) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: melodeonboy I wish certain people (HH Lady Cornish, Bruce Michael Baillie et al) would take my comments at face value rather than putting words in my mouth or making false assumptions. For the record, I have never said, or even intimated, that I don't like Seth Lakeman as a person or that I begrudge him his success or that I dislike his singing voice because it's unusual; and I did point out in my previous posting that I consider him to be talented. I merely said that his singing voice irritates me; I therefore don't particularly enjoy listening to him. What's wrong with saying that, for Christ's sake? Does everybody have to sing from the same hymn sheet on this one? Or have we got to the stage where we're no longer allowed to make any criticism of ceratin folk "gods"? |
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30 Jan 07 - 06:43 AM (#1952181) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Scrump We keep having to bring this thread back to the key issue: whether any of us individually likes or dislikes Seth Lakeman as a performer, musician, singer, or person, is 100%, totally, completely, and absolutely irrelevant. The only point is that one of his songs has been nominated as Best Traditional Track, and this is patently wrong. It doesn't matter that it's Seth Lakeman whose song has been nominated. It wouldn't matter if the song was written by Martin Carthy, Ewan MacColl or Paul McCartney. It could be anybody's song, but it would still be wrong for that song to be nominated in this particular category. |
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31 Jan 07 - 03:32 AM (#1953212) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: GUEST I would have thought it was good that folk music is getting into the mainstream with the likes of Seth Lakeman & Kate Rusby. Why do people always need to bring people down for doing so well? I take my hat off to them. |
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31 Jan 07 - 03:58 AM (#1953229) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Folkiedave Go read the thread. I am one of the biggest critics and I take my hat off too - or would if I had one. No-one is putting Seth Lakeman down. Kate Rusby does not come into it. A bit of history. Every so many years "folk" becomes trendy and the mainstream music takes an interest. Then it goes away. To return again some years later. We are at that point. CFPTRTBW (Campaign For People To Read Threads Before Writing) |
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31 Jan 07 - 04:06 AM (#1953232) Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding From: Scrump Agreed, Dave, but it would help if people would stick to the thread instead of going off into anti-Lakeman, anti-SOH, anti-Rusby or anti-anyone-"successful" tirades :-) |