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22 Feb 07 - 04:23 AM (#1975752) Subject: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: The Sandman John Cages famous composition 4 33,how is this categorised,the peice changes every time it is performed,so is it a composed peice,yet it evoves and changes like traditional music,it can be consciously improvised by the participants so is it jazz. I think it should be Englands new national anthem.http://www.dickmiles.com |
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22 Feb 07 - 04:37 AM (#1975762) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: Alec Back in the Thirties jukeboxes used to come with 3 minute silent records.This was so employees working in locations where jukeboxes were used could enjoy brief respite from other people's choice of music(It goes without saying they had to pay for the privilege.) Taking this into account,I would respectfully suggest that the Cage piece should properly be considered a regional variant of a pre-existing work.:0) |
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22 Feb 07 - 04:45 AM (#1975770) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: Liz the Squeak Funny how you can go all day without a sniffle or a cough, but as soon as someone calls for silence, you develop a tubercular cough that sounds like someone rolling ball bearings down a corrugated tin roof and starts round about your knees. It's classified as a 'classical' piece if you ask Virgin Megastores. HMV wouldn't know silence if it hit them between the ears. LTS |
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22 Feb 07 - 07:35 AM (#1975856) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: GUEST You need to have a very careful trawl through the archives at Cecil Sharp House, in order to find out exactly how a traditional silence was played. The key point will be to ensure that only the correct instruments are Not played. I cannot except that these modern digital silences created by not pressing the space bar on a laptop computer sequence are acceptable in any way in the folk context. Only geniune folk instruments must be not played, and ideally they should be silent in just intonation too. I remember hearing a silence from an old Yorkshire Dales farmer years ago. He assured me that it was a traditional way of saying nothing, so if I record a silence now, can I be nominated for best traditional non-singer next year? Cheers Dave |
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22 Feb 07 - 08:35 AM (#1975891) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: GUEST,Noreen Mike Batt included a track on one of his recordings a few years ago, that consisted of one minute of silence, crediting John Cage. The publishers of John Cage's 4'33 sued him, alleging that he had plagiarised Cage's work. Batt responded in typical style saying that his song is in 4/4 time whereas the Cage work is in a variety of time signatures, and they should specify which part of the piece they believe he has copied... As far as I know the case didn't get to court- so possibly the work is now traditional? |
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22 Feb 07 - 08:43 AM (#1975899) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: Liz the Squeak Could explain why Mike Batt music went out of business a few years ago... LTS |
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22 Feb 07 - 08:49 AM (#1975908) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: John MacKenzie It's a bit of pretentious rubbish, on a par with the Hans Christian Anderson story about the King's New Clothes. Giok |
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22 Feb 07 - 08:51 AM (#1975909) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: greg stephens This could tie in with the Lakeman controversy, as I recall that the BBC many years ago played a piece of silence recorded on Dartmoor. Now, if Seth Lakeman had heard that as a child, and played a version 4min33secs long on his next year...wait a minute, my brain is hurting. |
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22 Feb 07 - 08:59 AM (#1975921) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: Alec "...pretentious rubbish..." John "Giok" MacKenzie "Avante Garde is French for bullshit" John Ono Lennon I agree with John. |
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22 Feb 07 - 09:22 AM (#1975940) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: GUEST,M.Ted People who live in glass houses... |
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22 Feb 07 - 09:26 AM (#1975945) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: Alec make really interesting neighbours. |
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22 Feb 07 - 12:52 PM (#1976126) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazzor traditional From: GUEST,M.Ted What with the bagpipes and all... |
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22 Feb 07 - 01:14 PM (#1976149) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: Bee 4 33 is what happens when pretentious musicians party with pretentious conceptual artists. The resulting works are neither edifying nor entertaining, and only serve to get one invited to the next pretentious art party. I know this, having attended a number of these parties in my ill-spent youth. Folk musicians have a lot more fun. |
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22 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM (#1976152) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: John MacKenzie The unplayable in pursuit of the inaudible? Sorry Oscar ¦¬] G |
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22 Feb 07 - 01:53 PM (#1976187) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: The Sandman well its alright for people who like listening to sounds,there is no such thing as pure silence,.the odd cough etc,but obvoiusly there is no story,no conveying of emotions ,the sort of thingthat is important in musical compositions. however if it was used as a national anthem,4 33 of meditation before a football match for example,with a 100 thousand meditating together, might be pretty powerful. |
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22 Feb 07 - 02:05 PM (#1976201) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: Songster Bob The closest I've come to performing a traditional version of 4 33 is when I and friends accompanied Dave Diamond on his "a cappella Blues" one time. My part consisted of doing the turnaround every verse (I turned my mandolin around, front to back to front, and on one verse did it twice -- a double-time turnaround, and hard to do properly, let me tell you). "Folk musicians have a lot more fun." Especially when not playing their instruments, eh? Bob |
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22 Feb 07 - 02:32 PM (#1976225) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: Liz the Squeak I see your point Dick, but have you ever watched a crowd during the 2 minutes silence on Remembrance Day? You have to be very well disciplined to stay still and quiet for that amount of time... 4 minutes would just about kill some people! LTS |
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22 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM (#1976236) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: GUEST,Sue Allan I remember a few years ago BBC Radio 3 had a request show for Red Nose Day and someone requested the John Cage 4'33" ... they just played a short extract. |
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22 Feb 07 - 03:32 PM (#1976278) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: treewind If you want to undertand John Cage's status in 20th century music, you shouldn't so much listen to the music that he wrote as find out how many and how much other composers were influenced by his thoughts, ideas and innovations. He was an extremist who made a huge difference to the way many people think about music and deserves huge credit for that. Anahata |
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22 Feb 07 - 03:42 PM (#1976290) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: John MacKenzie Before his time obviously! G. |
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22 Feb 07 - 05:28 PM (#1976363) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: Bee-dubya-ell Classical or traditional? Depends on whether one considers the corresponding silence on the audience's part to be rapt attention or joining in the fun. |
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22 Feb 07 - 06:59 PM (#1976445) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: GUEST,M.Ted Silence is an empty space that can be defined with sounds. That's really what music is. 4'33" is about as simple an expression of that as you can get-- |
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23 Feb 07 - 03:41 AM (#1976766) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: John MacKenzie Silence is a lack of sound, and no amount of dressing it up as intellectually elite, is going to change the fact that it is pretentious twaddle! Giok |
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23 Feb 07 - 04:17 AM (#1976782) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: treewind Silence can also be an important part of music, and the point was worth making. Also the background noise in a live performance is also part of the live music experience. John Cage's instructions are "no sound is intentionally made" (my italics) so in a live performance of 4:33 any squeaking chairs, coughing, sniffing and breathing noises made by a live audience are deemed part of the musical experience. Anahata |
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23 Feb 07 - 04:21 AM (#1976786) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: treewind BTW in answer to the original question: obviously it depends on who's (not) playing it, how it's (not) played and what instruments it's (not) played on. I wonder if I could claim arranger's royalties for a cello and concertina version? Porbably not, as Cage's score already says it's for any instruments or instruments. Anahata |
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23 Feb 07 - 04:33 AM (#1976791) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: The Sandman pipers have an ornamentation called a pat,which is playing a silence. when I play slow airs,as I do when I sing slow songs,I consciously play and sing silences. perhaps the English national anthem should be one minutes silence for all the atrocities the English Establishment[not the English people] have committed over the years,[Sorry about thread drift]. it must be both classical and traditional,because the composer has given specific instructions,but every perfcormance will evolve and be different[does that make it trad],but not jazz because it is not being consciously altered. Ithink Anahata has a point, if it makes people aware of the importance of silences in music, it acheives something,however because it cant convey passion and emotion, it is not very good music. |
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23 Feb 07 - 04:42 AM (#1976796) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: The Sandman did John Cage, specify that people were not allowed to dance silently,in which it could ALSO be dance music. |
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23 Feb 07 - 05:20 AM (#1976820) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: John MacKenzie It can only point out the importance of silence in music if it has something to counterpoint that silence. Can you copyright the coughing and shuffling an audience makes in between completed pieces of music? I think you'll find that you'd be laughed out of the patent office. Sorry but in my book it's on a par with pickled sharks, piles of bricks, and lights going on and off in a random manner. Giok Proud to be a Philistine ¦¬] |
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23 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM (#1976976) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: M.Ted "Silence" is the product of the mind and will of an audience--we "create" it when consciously focus our attention on a performance in order to hear it--4'33" puts the audience in that conscious "listening" state of mind, and, without music, they hear the ambient sounds of the room in the same way that they'd hear a piece of music--it's a neat trick, and it really works-- |
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23 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM (#1976989) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: Geoff the Duck M.Ted - As I understand it - People who live in Glasshouses usually do their shopping in Pateley Bridge. Quack!! GtD. |
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23 Feb 07 - 01:50 PM (#1977169) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: GUEST,M.Ted But their post town is Harrowgate--your joke would have been lost on me, here in Maryland, were it not for Wikipedia-- |
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23 Feb 07 - 09:24 PM (#1977582) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: Lucius I was in a college electronic studio a few years back, stuck on a composition for our required group recital. I ended up transcribing it for magnetic tape. That was thirty years ago, bit I'm still surprised over the lack of humor that some people have towards the piece. |
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24 Feb 07 - 04:29 AM (#1977728) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: John MacKenzie Oh I find it funny Lucius,what I find appalling is the people who pontificate on the significance of this non musical confidence trick. Bring back Gerard Hoffnung, now he was a musical humourist! Giok Tuning up his vacuum cleaner. |
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24 Feb 07 - 04:32 AM (#1977730) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: The Sandman Its ideal dance music for people with two left feet.I believe the Morris ring dont mind, women morris dancers dancing to it,progress is being made.http://www.dickmiles.com |
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24 Feb 07 - 03:00 PM (#1978198) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: M.Ted You've elevated it from a pretentious fraud to a non-musical trick---you're coming along, Giok;-) |
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25 Feb 07 - 01:01 PM (#1978959) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: autolycus Cage would probably have found the question rather funny. He was seeking to encourage people to a more active participation in their world, rather than being passive consumers. He was also encouraging us to listen at all times to the world musically,not just when "music" was on. That was after he sought total silence. He went into an anacoustic (I think?) room with more-or-less no echo. He could still hear 2 sounds. One turned out to be jis own nervous system, the other his own blood circulation (if I remember aright). He also had a different attitude to 'music'. When asked what music was,he said anything he heard when he assumed the attitude of a music listener - hence 4'33''. If we did the same thing,we'd find more of the world music-laden and interesting,rather than a bore we plod/rush through. He was doing what lots of artists are up to,which is to open our senses. That would make us more creative,less habit-bound. Ivor |
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25 Feb 07 - 01:31 PM (#1979007) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: John MacKenzie Nice to know you're paying attention M Ted ¦¬] Must be difficult with all the ambient noise. Giok |
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25 Feb 07 - 04:18 PM (#1979180) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: GUEST,M.Ted Not to worry, Giok, I can multi-task. |
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25 Feb 07 - 07:59 PM (#1979381) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: The Fooles Troupe "John Cage's instructions are "no sound is intentionally made" (my italics) so in a live performance of 4:33 any squeaking chairs, coughing, sniffing and breathing noises made by a live audience are deemed part of the musical experience." I heard that one of the most interesting recorded permanences by Cage - and enjoyed by him - was when a couple of back stage workers in the wings talked the whole way thru about what a wanker Cage was.... :-) |
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26 Feb 07 - 08:04 AM (#1979736) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: The Sandman yes and isnt birdsong one of the most invigorating,and uplifting sounds. |
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26 Feb 07 - 10:22 AM (#1979839) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: autolycus Exactly,Cap'n. BTW,talking of Cage enjoying the backstage chatter, when Mahler was conducting his 1st,and hit the explosion that starts the finale,he,the composer,was amused,not shocked,when the 'bang' made a lady in the front row noisily drop her bag. Ivor |
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26 Feb 07 - 06:23 PM (#1980287) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: GUEST,282RA >>You have to be very well disciplined to stay still and quiet for that amount of time... 4 minutes would just about kill some people!<< But those are the ones that need killing. |
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26 Feb 07 - 06:24 PM (#1980289) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: GUEST,282RA >>Silence is a lack of sound, and no amount of dressing it up as intellectually elite, is going to change the fact that it is pretentious twaddle!<< All music is pretentious twaddle so get your head out of your ass. |
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27 Feb 07 - 06:00 PM (#1981218) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: GUEST It is not silence. It is ambient music. ;-} |
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28 Feb 07 - 04:59 AM (#1981552) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: Geoff the Duck ahem, ahem... Thank you! Quack! GtD. |
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28 Feb 07 - 05:08 AM (#1981559) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: John MacKenzie What no echo? |
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28 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM (#1981841) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: Geoff the Duck They keep telling me that Ducks don't echo! Or is that a load of old tripe too? Quack! GtD. |
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01 Mar 07 - 06:38 AM (#1982558) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: autolycus 'Giok'. O.K.? Ivor |
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01 Mar 07 - 06:41 AM (#1982560) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: John MacKenzie Encore ! |
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01 Mar 07 - 02:29 PM (#1983026) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: autolycus 'Giok',sorry we have to dash to catch our train back to . LOL Ivor |
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02 Mar 07 - 07:52 AM (#1983748) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: autolycus Wow,just popped back to say that was my first 50th !!!!!!! Ivor |
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02 Mar 07 - 10:11 AM (#1983896) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: GUEST,Tunesmith The problem with the piece is that it isn't long enough to establish a theme on which to build interesting variations. Now if the piece had been 30.33 then we could have clearer idea of the composers' skills at thematic development. |
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02 Mar 07 - 03:15 PM (#1984246) Subject: RE: cages 4 33 is it jazz or traditional From: autolycus That's not a problem with the piece,but with your placing an inappropriate expectation on the piece. on the other hand, great joke. Ivor |