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13 Mar 07 - 11:28 AM (#1995431) Subject: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) In the decades immediately following the Civil War, a number of Black singing groups toured the United States, usually billed as singers of 'Plantation melodies,' or 'Jubilee songs.' Songs were almost exclusively religious. Concerts took place at camp meetings and in lecture halls. Well-known are the singers from Fisk (Jubilee Singers) and the Hampton Institute, but the others are seldom mentioned. The "Nashville Students" was one such group, touring in the 1870's-1880's for the Redpath Lyceum Bureau, 'proprietor' H. B. Thearle, musical arranger J. J. Sawyer. In 1885, a small booklet with some of their selections was published. Similar little booklets were published by other groups for sale at concerts; all are now exceedingly rare. A few of the songs of the "Nashville Students," not published by other groups, will be given in the following posts. Lyr. Add: DAR'S A JUBILEE Refrain: Dar's a jubilee, Way down on de ole camp ground, Way down on de ole camp ground. 1. De Devil tho't he had us fast, Way down on de ole camp ground. 2. I've broke his chains, am free at last, Way down on de ole camp ground. 3. You can fool us so, but you can't fool God, Way down on de ole camp ground. 4. For God knows de secrets of ev'ry heart, Way down on de ole camp ground. P. 3, With score, a camp meeting song. Note: "It will be observed that in most of these songs, the first strain is of the nature of a chorus or refrain, which is to be sung after each verse. The return to this chorus should be made without breaking the time. In some of the verses the syllables do not correspond exactly to the notes in the music. The adaptation is so easy that it was thought best to leave it to the skill of the singer rather than to confuse the eye by too many notes. The music is in each case carefully adapted to the first verse. Whatever changes may be necessary in singing the remaining verses will be found to involve no difficulty." J. J. Sawyer. Arranger J. J. Sawyer, 1885, "Jubilee Songs, Plantation Melodies, Words and Music." Sung by the Original Nashville Students, the Celebrated Colored Concert Co. H. B. Thearle, Redpath Lyceum Bureau, Boston and Chicago. |
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13 Mar 07 - 01:38 PM (#1995575) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) Lyr. Add: RAILROAD TRAIN 1. Says dat blackbird to de crow, Oh, my! hallelujah! What makes dese white folks love us so? Oh, my! hallelujah! As I went in de valley to pray, Oh, my! hallelujah! I met old Satan on de way, Oh, my! hallelujah! Chorus. Railroad train am passing thro', Dis world am saying how-de do; And sister, I am coming too, Oh, my! hallelujah! (Faster) Byme bye, byme bye, Stars number one, number two, number three, number four. Byme bye .... byme bye, Good Lord,.... byme bye. 2. As I was crossing yonder field, Oh, my! hallelujah! Black snake bit me on de heel, Oh, my! hallelujah! Turned around to run my best, Oh, my! hallelujah! Left foot stopped in a hornet's nest, Oh, my! hallelujah! Chorus. With music. Copyright 1884. P. 13, J. J. Sawyer, arranger, 1885, "Jubilee Songs and Plantation Melodies, Words and Music." H. B. Thearle, Redpath Lyceum Bureau. |
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14 Mar 07 - 01:31 PM (#1996592) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) Lyr. Add: HAIL DAT BEAUTIFUL STAR Chorus: Hail, hail dat beautiful star, Hail, hail dat beautiful star, Hail, hail dat beautiful star, De star of Bethlehem. 1. If you get dar before I do, De Star of Bethlehem, Just tell dem all I'm coming too, De Star of Bethlehem. 2. I'll take a walk to Galilee, De Star of Bethlehem, To see de man dat set us free, De Star of Bethlehem. 3. I came this night for to sing and pray, De Star of Bethlehem, To drive ole Satan far away, De Star of Bethlehem. Same source as those above. Copyright 1884. "To see de man dat set us free" could also refer to Abraham Lincoln. |
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14 Mar 07 - 03:28 PM (#1996734) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi Q, see this post from the Mudcat thread "Subject: Behold That Star" thread.cfm?threadid=41958#607367 In addition to giving biographical information for Fisk University professor, singer, and author of the 1922 collection "Negro Folk Rhymes" Thomas W. Talley, that Dec 10, 2001 post from Mary in Kentucky post provides these comments: "Pete Seeger notes that "Behold That Star" was "composed by a black musician [not named] in Tennessee about 1930." [no credits, no copyright]. However, in Thomas W. Talley's book, Negro Folk Rhymes...Edited...by Charles K. Wolfe. Music transcriptions by Bill Ferreira. Knoxville: Univ. of Tennessee Press, 1991.Rev. ed. of Negro folk rhymes, wise and otherwise, published 1922 by the Macmillan Company. Contains music (ISBN 0-87049-673-5) Charles Wolfe's new introduction gives some info on it. Talley wrote the song; the "black musician in Tennessee" in Pete Seeger's notes was Talley.... The following are quotes mentioning "Behold That Star" from the introduction: "Florence Hudson Botsford invited Talley to contribute a song to her collection, Folk Songs of Many Peoples, and he sent her an original composition called 'Behold That Star'." (pp. xviii-xix)... His song "Behold That Star" entered the Christmas music repertoire and was widely reprinted in anthologies. In the early 1970s, the piece was performed on a national broadcast by Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic, with Leontyne Price singing. By this time the song had become so pervasive that Talley's name had been detatched from it, and Bernstein announced that he regretted that he did not know who had composed the song." (pp. xx-xxi)... -snip- Here's the chorus to "Behold That Star" * Behold that star! Behold that star up yonder! Behold that star! It is the star of Bethlehem. *The words to this song are given in the Mudcat thread whose link I provided in the beginning of this post. -snip- There's an unmistakeable similarity between that chorus and the chorus of "Hail Dat Beautiful Star" Hail, hail dat beautiful star, Hail, hail dat beautiful star, Hail, hail dat beautiful star, De star of Bethlehem. -snip- I'm not sure about the tune, but I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't the same. The verses that are attributed to Talley's "Behold That Star" are different from the words to the "Hail Dat Beautiful Star". Maybe that what is meant by him being the composer of this song. ?? |
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14 Mar 07 - 05:06 PM (#1996844) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) I am not certain of what Wolfe meant by Talley sending Florence Botsford "an original composition called "Behold That Star."" She was requesting songs for her collection, "Folk Songs of Many Peoples," not original compositions. I have Botsford's book with the song. "Behold That Star" was published as "U. S. A. (Negro), Melody by Thomas W. Talley, Words by Thomas W. Talley," p. 47, with music, 1922, in "Botsford Collection of Folk-Songs, Vol. 1, Songs from the Americas, Asia and Africa," G. Schirmer Inc. New York. Did Talley say that the song was original with him? I would guess that his papers would indicate that he had the rudiments in his collection and fleshed it out for Botsford. (Seeger's comment is one of those 'off the top of the head' remarks he was prone to make and should be given no credence. ) The refrain of "Behold That Star!" is similar to the refrain of "Hail dat beautiful star" of the Nashville Students, 1884. The verses are entirely different. The relationship is conjectural, but possible, as you suggest. The melodies are not the same. I would not doubt that other versions exist about the 'star.' There are many old unremembered or poorly remembered African-American religious songs that are not readily available; the little pamphlet I found is just one of many that were produced in the 19th c. and seldom found. "Rise Up, Shepherd, an' Foller," a song about the 'star' from the Hampton Institute (see Dett), is another that Botsford included in the book I cite above. I keep looking for 'star' songs, because I think that one of them is the basis for the little verses on which rest the "Drinking Gourd" nonsense. It takes money that I don't have to get the old camp meeting books. |
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14 Mar 07 - 08:14 PM (#1997012) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi Q, thanks for posting examples the song booklet of the Nashville Student Jubilee singers. I'm curious, in the context of African American songs, isn't the term "jubilee" usually reserved for religious song? From my informal study of Talley's "Negro Folk Rhymes" and other African American pre-emancipation songs, it appears that there is sometimes no firm line of demarcation between religious and religuous songs. A chorus {refrain}such as "Poor mourner, you will be free/when the good Lord sets you free" may have been used for a religious song or a secular dance song. Also, a secular verse may follow a religious verse and vice versa. But if I had to classify "Railroad Train" {the first example from that Nashville Students booklet that you posted} as either a religous or a secular song, I would categorize it as a non-religous song. Actually, this "Railroad Train" example reminds me of a traditional African American children's play song as much as it does a youth/adult dance song and much more than it 'sounds' like a religous song. I get the sense that "Railroad Train" was composed the traditional way-by stringing together lines & verses from a number of songs/rhymes. And I also think that,like other traditional African American songs and rhymes, "Railroad Train" was probably open ended. The song could last as long as the singers remembered verses or made up verses from familiar and popular songs. These lines and verses don't have to have similar themes. They are added from memory and on the spot improvisation as a means of extending the length of the song. Needless to say, as part of the folk tradition, purposeful and accidental changes were sometimes made to these floating verses. I've found a number of different songs that contain lines and verses from these songs. Here's some examples: Lines from "Railroad Train": "Says dat blackbird to de crow, Oh, my! hallelujah! What makes dese white folks love us so?" -snip- Lines from "Jim Crack Corn" {source: Old Mother Hippletoe-Rural and Urban Children's Songs" New World Records NE 291 [1978] [from Dan Emmett's "Blue Tail Fly", 1844 "Oh said the black bird to the crow makes the White folks hate us so? Stealing corn has been our trade Ever since the world was made. [note: The lyrics to the Mother Hippletoe record can be found online through google. For whatever reason, I couldn't copy the URL] ** Here;s a similar verse from a religious song: "Nobody knows the trouble I've seen, Glory halleluyah! Sometimes I'm up, sometimes I'm down! O yes, Lord! Sometimes I'm almost to de groun'! O yes, Lord! What makes old Satan hate me so? O yes, Lord, Because he got me once, but he let me go; O yes, Lord!" Source: The Religion of the American Negro Slave: His Attitude Toward Life and Death: Electronic Edition. Wilson, G. R http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:9KAgRcg7sJkJ:docsouth.unc.edu/church/wilson/wilson.xml+i+went+to+the+valley+to+pray+i+met+o -snip- I'll continue my presentation of floating verses from that "Railroad Song" in my next post. |
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14 Mar 07 - 08:53 PM (#1997059) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi Lines from "Train Song" as provided in Q's 2nd post to this thread: "I went to the valley for to pray I met ole Satan on de way" Google found these words in this article "Roland Hayes: Expressor of the Soul in Song (1887-1977) Marva Griffin Carter The Black Perspective in Music, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Autumn, 1977), pp. 188-220 doi:10.2307/1214079 http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0090-7790(197723)5%3A2%3C188%3ARHEOTS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-8 -snip- I don't have access to this JSTOR website... -snip- Lines: "Railroad train am passing thro', Dis world am saying how-de do; And sister, I am coming too" -snip- These lines song like the floating verse "If you get to heaven before I do/just tell my friends I'm comin too". These lines are found in a number of spirituals. And Bo Diddley used them {or lines like them} in the R&B song "Dearest Darling" -snip- Lines: "Byme bye, byme bye, Stars number one, number two, number three, number four. Byme bye .... byme bye, Good Lord,.... byme bye." * I've "translated" "byme bye" as "by and by". And that phrase remind me of the religous song "We'll understand it better by and by [I'm not sure if that's the right title, but that's the one I've used for it. The words are- By and By when the mornin comes. When all the saints of God are gathered home. We'll tell the story how we've overcome And we'll understand it better by and by -snip- If my guess is correct that 'byme bye'='by and by', I wonder if singing the phrase served as short hand for the entire religous song, as saying part of a popular phrase or a singing a line from a familiar song causes us to remember the entire phrase or song. Maybe this was factored into the reason why only a line here and a verse there from multiple songs were used in a one song... [This is all theory. And I certainly have no way of proving it. But I'm wondering if there is research on the subject of floating verses serving as short hand for an entire song or phrase.] Continuing the presentation of examples of lines found in that "Train Song", "Stars number one, number two, number three, number four." -snip- These next lines really remind me of a traditional African American children's song/rhyme. And I could cite some examples from contemporary children's foot stomping cheers and cheerleader cheers. However, I'm wondering if anyone else thinks this song might be a source for those "Number one, Number two etc lines: Lyr Add: SUNDAY MORNIN' BAND Number one. Number two, number three angel Number four, number five, number six angel, Number seven, number eight, number nine angel An' ten little angels in the ban' Whata ban' on Sunday mornin' Whata ban' on Sunday mornin', Whata ban' on Sunday mornin', Sunday mornin' ban' Source: Tristram Potter Coffin, Hennig Cohen "Folklore From The Working Poor of America" {Anchor Press/Doubleday, 1973; pp-96-97} -snip- Lines: As I was crossing yonder field, Oh, my! hallelujah! Black snake bit me on de heel etc. -snip- This verse is included in numerous African American pre-emancipation secular folk songs including versions of the "Patteroller Song" {"Run ---Run"} and "Dr. Peck". |
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14 Mar 07 - 11:04 PM (#1997132) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) Some of the interpretations in Old Mother Hippletoe are stretched too far. The verse you quote from "Jim Crack Corn" (from Hippletoe) is from a song in Randolph called "The Crow Song," verses of it or similar songs appear in Odum and Johnson, Perrow, Talley, Cox, Harris and others, stories as well as songs, but has nothing to do with either "Jim Crack Corn" or the "Blue Tail Fly" (see threads, originally separate minstrel songs that became united). The writer of the blurbs for the recordings has slipped a cog or two. I'll read through some of it as I get time, but I get the feeling that some conclusions need to be taken with a carload of salt. My take on the 'url'- Hippletoe (May not work either- pdf sites give me trouble too) Byme by, I agree is by and by- I remember old folks who said By um by, and I think it is the same sort of expression. Whether it could refer to the old spiritual By(e) and By(e) I don't know. The black snake bite on the heel appears in both White and Black song- why the poor black snake had such a bad reputation I don't know. In White song, goes back to Colonial times. Threads on this one. Lines and verses from one song float to others, so many songs overlap. |
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15 Mar 07 - 07:25 AM (#1997353) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi Q, I assume when you wrote "The black snake bit on the heel appear in both White and Black Song" that you mean folk songs from American {USA} White people and folk song from American Black people. As to why the poor black snake has such a bad reputation, maybe because many more people were shoeless then [because of poverty]and since black snakes were prevalent [more prevalent?], people were ][more?]worried about getting bit by a black snake. From the words of these songs, I gather that black snakes {or any other kind of snake?} more often bites people on the heel than anywhere else {since the heel is the closes part of the body to the ground}. See this excerpt about fear of encountering snakes in Florida from an online book I found through googling 'black snake bite on heel": "It has often been said that a rattlesnake is a gentleman and will not strike without warning you. Those people have probably never looked one in the eyes when he was cocked and primed and ready for business. I would not trust anything (or anybody) with eyes as beady as a rattlesnake's are. Do not forget a snake spends his time out in the rain and on cold ground and is likely to develop an arthritic personality! They will usually warn you when they feel that it is to their best interest to do so. Genesis 3: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel." A snake with his tummy full of rabbit or squirrel is not nearly as anxious to strike you as a hungry one would be. One of the greatest dangers is in stepping over a log or surprising one... The cutting of palm buds has for generations been a partial livelihood for a few people around here. They cut all winter and sell to a central depot where the buds are packed and shipped to the northern markets, where they are used on Palm Sundays. This could be dangerous work, for you have to be continually looking up instead of studying the ground. We haven't sold any long poles or wide chisels lately so maybe they are not cutting the buds out of tall trees anymore. Garland Strickland told me he was looking up when something hit his boot and when he looked down, there was a rattle snake. He backed up and pulled off his boot to find that the snake had hit the boot where it was reinforced and the fang did not go through. Then he took a stick and killed the snake... Quite often you hear people say that when you see black snakes, you will see no rattlers because a black snake can and will kill a rattler. I have heard people tell of seeing a battle between the two species. Their explanation was that the black snake was a constrictor and wrapped itself around the rattler, pulling it apart. I can think of nothing less appealing to me than to be wrapped around a rattler, but then, I am not a constrictor.., I suppose if it had not been for the rattlers in Florida, there would not be any game or much of anything else left in the woods. Fear keeps many people out of the forest and maybe that is a good thing.." http://historicaltextarchive.com/books.php?op=viewbook&bookid=69&cid=10 "Them Good Ole Days at Mayport and the Beaches" |
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15 Mar 07 - 01:44 PM (#1997697) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) See thread 10108: Rattlesnake I think I got my snakes mixed up. "Springfield Mountain" aka "Rattlesnake Mountain" is the very old White song in which a serpent, snake or rattlesnake is the central character; the black snake appears in mostly Black folk song and story. |
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16 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM (#1998753) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) Lyr. Add: WHEN DE ROCKS AND DE MOUNTAINS Refrain: When the rocks and the mountains shall all pass away, And you shall have a new hiding place that day. 1. Doubter, doubter, give up your heart to God, And you shall have a new hiding place that day. 2. Mourner, mourner, give up your heart to God, And you shall have a new hiding place that day. 3. Sinner, sinner, give up your heart to God, etc. 4. Sister, sister, give up your heart to God, etc. 5. Mother, mother, give up your heart to God, etc. 6. Children, children, give up your heart to God, etc. This song follows a common procedure in a number of Af-Am religious songs of the 19th c. - a statement is made, and then applied to family members and others in a series of very simple verses. Nashville Students, 1884; reference same as for preceeding jubilee songs. Jubilee had several uses in the 19th c. 1. A religious camp meeting, White or Black (I remember the 60's folk singers tried to apply the term to a big get-together). 2. Celebration of emancipation. 3. Celebration of an event that took place a set period of years before (marriage, reign, etc.). 4. A religious song (see comment by Azizi, above). The Jubilee Singers, etc. (Can't remember exactly, but I think that it was in the 1880's that the term 'spiritual' was first applied in a magazine article to some Black religious song). Nowadays, the term usually marks a celebration (3., above) (The papacy had a jubilee marking 700 years and there was the famous Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria in 1897 marking 60 years of her reign). And of course there are Cherries Jubilee, that grand dessert, created by Escoffier in 1887 to mark the Golden Jubilee of Queen Victoria. |
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16 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM (#1999015) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi I wish there were a way on Mudcat that a poster could edit her or his posted comments for typos and other errors. Here's what I meant to write in my 14 Mar 07 - 08:14 PM post: "From my informal study of Talley's "Negro Folk Rhymes" and other African American pre-emancipation songs, it appears that there is sometimes no firm line of demarcation between religious and non-religous songs." |
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16 Mar 07 - 06:33 PM (#1999067) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) Understood the first time, so no real problem. Talley- sometimes I wish I had a copy printed before Wolfe revised it. |
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17 Mar 07 - 06:28 AM (#1999378) Subject: Lyr Add: THE ORIGIN OF THE SNAKE From: Azizi Q, thanks. I figured you undertood what I meant to write, but I posted that correction for others who might read that comment now or later. Re: Talley-the copy I have is pre-Wolf's revision. Here's a secular song from that book tht I don't think has been posted on Mudcat yet: THE ORIGIN OF THE SNAKE Up de hill an' down de level! Up de hill an' down de level! Granny's puppy treed de Devil. Puppy howl, an' Devil shake! Puppy howl, an' Devil shake! Devil leave, an' dere's yo' snake. Mash his head; de sun shine bright! Mash his head; de sun shine bright; Tail don't die ontel it's night. Night come on, an' sperits groan! Night come on, an' sperits groan! Devil come an' gits his own. Source: Thomas W. Talley: "Negro Folk Songs, Wise and Otherwise" {Port Washington, N.Y., Kennikat Press, Inc.; 1968, p. 165; originally published,1922,The Macmillan Company} |
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17 Mar 07 - 06:59 AM (#1999384) Subject: Re: Lyr Add: The Hated Blackbird And Crow From: Azizi Here's an example of the "why the white folks hate us so" line from an example in Talley's collection: THE HATED BLACKBIRD AND CROW Dat Blackbird say unto de Crow: "Dat's why de white folks hate us so; For ever since old Adam wus born, It's been our rule to gedder green corn." Dat Blackbird say unto de Crow: "If you's not black, den I don't know. White folks calls you black, but I say not; Caze de kittle musn' talk about de pot." Source: Thomas W. Talley: "Negro Folk Songs, Wise and Otherwise" {Port Washington, N.Y., Kennikat Press, Inc.; 1968, p. 183; originally published,1922,The Macmillan Company} -snip- Re: "The Hated Blackbird and Crow" , it seems obvious to me that this rhyme/song is referring to Black people when it refers to birds. There are a number of examples in Talley that document Black preferences-in those days-for light skinned Black people {especially Black women}. However, Talley also includes some examples that document Black putdowns of light skinned Black people, and/or preferences for dark skin Black people. Given that calling someone black was a negative in those days {and unfortunately, among some Black people these days, it is still considered an insult}, my interpretation of the main point of this rhyme is that African American who has darker skin color than another African American is reminding him or her that regardless of the relative lightness of his skin, he or she is still consider part of the Black race, and therefore is still hated by 'white people' {admittedly this is a generality, but in those days, for safety's sake, imo, it was better to err on the side of caution}. ** In the Nashville Students' Jubilee "Railroad Song" -as posted by Q in his post on 13 Mar 07 - 01:38 PM -the lines are given as "Says dat blackbird to de crow/.../What makes dese white folks love us so?" However, other versions that I've found-so far- are what makes the Devil hate us so, or what makes the white folks hate us so" or "that's [dat's]why the white folks hate us so". Q, have you found any other versions that give these lines as "what makes the white folks love us so?" I'm wondering if the Nashville singers changed that line from 'white folks hate us so' to 'white folks love us so' to make their public concerts in front of white people more acceptable to their audience. Or perhaps the person who transcribed that line changed it for that same purpose??? ** Btw, I presume the Nashville Students were African American young adult students from a college in Nashville. But which college were they from? |
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17 Mar 07 - 07:21 AM (#1999389) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi Maybe the line "What makes the white folks love us so" was given as irony. I can imagine some Black folks hearing it and saying or thinking "Yeah, right!" Of course, I'm Black and I love some White folks and some White folks love me. But that's a whole 'nuther story in a whole 'nuther time. |
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17 Mar 07 - 07:23 AM (#1999390) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi Hmmm, maybe I should have written that sentence "yeah, right." {with no exclamation point}. Any way...Moving right along... |
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17 Mar 07 - 07:50 AM (#1999406) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Jeri White folks calls you black, but I say not; Caze de kittle musn' talk about de pot. This isn't talking about skin color, it's talking about the reason 'black' was a perjorative term. 'Black as the devil' - look at some old artistic portrayals of the devil - he was BLACK. He wasn't a dark shade of 'flesh', he was black as a cast iron pot or kettle. A person can have a black heart or soul, be in a black mood - in that context, it means evil/bad. When I was a kid (early 1960s), I was taught never to refer to someone as 'black'. I don't believe the adjective, or the song, referred primarily to skin color, but to evil. 'Black' was a bad thing to call a person, because it indicated the darkness of their skin meant they had a 'black', or evil, soul. Blackbirds and crows are black in color, so they must be evil. After all, they steal corn! I think the song is quite clever. It infers white men steal too, and so are as 'black' as the blackbird and crow. ~~100% opinion~~ |
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17 Mar 07 - 08:23 AM (#1999416) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi "'Black' was a bad thing to call a person, because it indicated the darkness of their skin meant they had a 'black', or evil, soul." -snip- Maybe. But when and why was the word 'black' associated with evil or bad? True, black has been associated with evil for centuries, but it wasn't always so. I've got a copy of a book called "Before Color Consciousness" which includes quotes of early Greeks praising Ethiopians. I can't find the book as it's packed with other books in some box because of home renovation...I'll have to look for it and posts some quotes later today as I have to go to work soon... ** When I was a child until I was a young adult, I thought that the devil was always depicted as being the color red or at least wearing red. I don't recall seeing any images of the devil {Satan} wearing black or being black in skin color. It wasn't until my middle adult years that I read anything about the devil being black in color. ** In the late 1960s or early 1970s, I recall hearing a poem written by a Black person that listed all the things in our society that were white and considered good-I can't remember the lines but it was things like the Easter bunny, Santa Claus, snow, Ivory soap [100% pure], Jesus [though he wasn't really white}, Cinderella, Rubunzel [let down your golden hair]etc...And then the poem ended with this line: "White, white, white, white! No wonder I hate myself." ** Another quote from Jeri's post: "A person can have a black heart or soul, be in a black mood - in that context, it means evil/bad." I'm in a black mood. I have a black heart and I have a black soul. My complexion is black. And as far as I'm concerned, all of this is great! It's all about context {who says what, when, and how}. |
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17 Mar 07 - 08:34 AM (#1999422) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Azizi And Jeri, I stand by my opinion that the line "said the blackbird to the crow/what makes the white folks hate us so {or "love us son"}" is about race ... both external [Black people & White people] And -in Talley's example anyway- skin color preferences and comments about race prejudice among Black people]. I'd love to discuss this further but I'm late for work-on a Saturday even. |
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17 Mar 07 - 09:28 AM (#1999441) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Jeri Of course it's about race. About the color and the history of black as the color of evil, never mind. I can't get any more lucid than to explain that I think White folks calls you black, but I say not;is saying the blackbird and the crow aren't any more evil, as stealers of corn, than the white men who call them 'black'. I don't have the attention span (literally), and the debate would (I believe) be better in its own thread. |
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17 Mar 07 - 11:44 AM (#1999506) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Nashville Students Jubilee Songs From: Q (Frank Staplin) I took the line in the song as irony. At the time the singers could use a line like that in the North and perhaps in border states such as Tennessee, but even as late as the 1940's it would have been considered insufferable cheek in the rural Georgia I knew at the time. damnyankee (never given caps) was still the most damning of epithets. Remember that the 1880's were still in Reconstruction times. Hated scaliwags and carpetbaggers abounded; it was the Blacks who were punished because the White carpetbaggers had the force of the damnyankee government behind them and Blacks were the easy target. I think that the "Nashville Students" also were from Fisk, like the Jubilee Singers whom they apparently copied. Two of the songs in their repertory were "Steal Away" and "March On," using the exact words of the Jubilee Singers. The President of Fisk University, in a preface to "The Story of the Jubilee Singers," 1880, wrote "The most of the students are dependent upon themselves, and most earn their own support while securing their education." At the time, the expenses of Fisk were met by the American Missionary Association. It seems likely that other students at Fisk tried to copy the success of the Jubilee Singers in order to pay their living expenses. (In this thread I have used 'Black' in preference to 'colored' which was the accepted word at the time (e. g., used by the president of Fisk in the preface above). I have hesitated to use African-American since the term was unknown at the time and seems anachronistic when used in discussions of the 19th c. |