What is with Ballet?

Subject: What is with Ballet?
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 11:00 AM

I am fond of all kinds of theatre, music, opera, baseball, and who knows what all, but am stumped with Ballet. I have been many times (even to Covent Garden to see some greats, have seen Nureyev, Barishnikov, some Balanchine ballets, etc., etc.) and it does nothing for me -- oh the occasional gee isn't that pretty, or my he can jump high can't he. But the conventions do not work for me, the way even the silliest convention works for me in opera. I know it is a blind spot. Is there anyone out there who can give me a key to unlock the secret to this art form?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 11:44 AM

I don't think there's any easy answer - I've always enjoyed watching ballet myself. One approach might be to look things that are not pure classical ballet (and, I would suggest, not modern ballet either).

You may not have access to them, but in the UK I would recommend getting to see the Northern Ballet in "A Christmas Carol". This has the advantage of being a story that everyone knows inside out and the music is built around traditional carols. A result it can be enjoyed in three quite distinct ways: as story-telling, and a sort of carol concert and as ballet. Moreover, the set by Lez Brotherstone is particularly brilliant, so you can enjoy it as pure theatre as well.

I think the approach I'm suggesting is using one of the other forms of entertainment you enjoy to allow you to 'dip into' the ballet. Go thinking to Swan Lake thinking of it as a classical music concert with added dance, for example, rather than as a ballet.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 09:27 PM

I love ballet, and it's the grace and agility that draw me. Sort of like why I love gymnastics.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 11:56 PM

All the various steps in ballet are said to be based on French folk dancing. Hard to believe. Ballet is NOT graceful. I've been on stage when the corps came on. They sometines drown out the music. The feet thud, the bodies sweat. If you're close enough, you can hear the grunting of people doing heavy labour. Like heavy weight boxing, it should be outlawed for what it does to too many of the people who practice it. That kind of strain tends to destroy the body.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:07 AM

That it does, just like gymnastics. I have seen photos of ballerinas feet.........not pretty. Black and blue and terribly defomed, but they want to do it, and I still think it is graceful. I have seen live ballet, and never heard the "thud", but I belive it is there. Sweat, yes, of course, but I also sweat on stage and I don't do ballet, just aerobic fiddling. Everybody sweats. Just sweat doing what you want to do.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: alison
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:08 AM

I thought I was going to get thrown out of the ballet once for laughing too much!!... I was in the stalls ... the orchestra pit was sunken below the stage so all we could hear was the THUDDING..... bad enough with one ballerina, (admittedly she looked graceful and light on her feet).... but when the corps came on it was like a herd of elephants......

I do like seeing how high the men can jump though.....


slainte

alison

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:42 AM

I love to watch the dancing but could care less about any of the rest of it, including the story. I love to watch just about any kind of dancing, other than modern.

Something less than traditional in the way of costuming might help, Peter. Something about those tutus and men in tights which just sets up all kinds of stereotypes. Like Alison, though, I do like to watch those men in tights!:-)

Sorcha, I am not sure all of them can be said to want to do it. To go anywhere with it, they have to start out so young. I wonder how much of a choice they actually have along the way, ya know? Kind of like the younger and younger gymnasts we've seen at the Olympics.

kat

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: poetlady
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:10 AM

I, at one time, intended to be a professional dancer. I quit dancing in high school, however, due to the demands upon my time, which made it hard to work on my writing and get passing grades at my small private school, as well as the unpleasantness to my toes. I deeply regret it, actually. So what if my toes managed to bleed through my tights, layer of wool and wool pouchy thingies (all traditional foot protection)? :)
About what Sorcha said about deformed feet- I have known ladies with very deformed feet, however, this problem has been pretty much eliminated now. You see, they used to start pointe work at a very young age, when a child's feet were not yet through growing. that is why their feet became deformed. Now girls have to wait until they are around 12 to begin pointe work.
   I'd have to differ with the guest who says it is not graceful. When the feet thud, it is because of the hard shanks of the shoes. (Oh my, they're hard!) The shank is necessary to stay en pointe for a long period of time. (In the early days of pointe, ladies just darned the end of their slippers in yarn, and only stayed up for very sort amounts of time.) I always liked the sound myself. Kind of like percussion. Notice the men's feet don't make any noise because of the soft shoes. As for the sweating part, vigorous exercise tends to make you do that, but the dancers usually don't have time to care or notice, and there's always perfume.
Ballet did begin in France in the seventeen hundreds. It was a favorite pastime of the nobility. Louis XIV liked to have ballets written in which he got the main role. It is said he got the title the "Sun King" from a role he took in a ballet in which he played the sun and the lesser nobles got to orbit about him. (Talk about egotism. :) ) It probably did have roots in French folk dancing, but I'm not sure how much we know about 18th century French folk dancing.
   I obviously like ballet very much. :) I don't know if I'd like it if I hadn't danced, though, because when I watch it I'm thinking how it feels and marveling at all the mistakes they aren't making.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: GUEST,Snarky
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:53 AM

Ballet is a word loaded with so many prejudices - I prefer Dance and I just love the Dance.

I have just seen the Scottish Ballet National Tour, which played to packed houses all over Scotland.
Their programmes and style are highly accessible full of fun, grace and wit.

One of their pieces, Light Fandango is based on traditional Scottish dance with a contemporary twist. The music is traditional Appalachian and Scottish.
Another is Troy Games all the men in the company, very OTT macho – all to Brazilian street samba music.

See the right company and you will enjoy the Dance.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Kaleea
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 04:46 AM

What do you mean "conventions"? Don't the shriners hold "conventions"? I don't ever believe I have seen a ballet at a convention. Usually, a ballet is held in a theatre. I suppose you don't mind a good Musical, huh? Well, it just so happens that one of the all-time greatest Broadway Musicals is back on Broadway. It is one of the most often performed Musicals ever--frequently performed by school & amateur theatre groups across the USA. It's called "Oklahoma!" Oh yes, and by the way, it has a ballet in it!
In the earliest form of Theatre, music, song, and dance were quite popular. Grand Opera (I've never seen an opera at a convention, either!) was a play which was sung, and often included dance, as in: Ballet.
Some folks find that they enjoy certain art forms after studying them in a class. Other persons have a closed mind, and have made up their mind to dislike or "not understand" an art form, even before experiencing it. Some things you either like or you don't. If you don't, then go and enjoy the art forms which you do like. It is not necessary to complain about the ones which you do not enjoy or understand.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 08:26 AM

I have to agree with Guest about the noise and it's nothing to do with the shoes. I saw the Northern Ballets production of Romeo & Juliet and it was most men thumping away. That's appropriate on the Knights Dance but not elsewhere. I think the porblem is they they were very flat-footed, landing on the whole foot rather than on the balls as an Irish or Scottish step dancer or even a Cotswold Morris dancer would. I suppose in a fully mounted production the dancers would be quite a distance from the audience with a full orchestra in between so that you wouldn't be able to hear the footfalls but what amazed me was the sheer lack of rhythm.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 08:49 AM

I wouldn't worry about it, Peter -- chacun a son mauvais gout y'know. Some people enjoy galloping greyhounds,   some are partial to simian histrionics! I think ballet requires a greater degree of subscription, of suspended disbelief, than theater does.

A

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: mooman
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 09:06 AM

I find some ballet, especially modern, quite a powerful idiom of expression and, where I live, we are lucky to have several excellent troupes.

mooman

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Hecate
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 09:51 AM

I think if you look at ballet as trying to portray the emotions behind the story, sometimes that can help.

Agree that Northern ballet are superb - saw their ~Dracula` a few years back which was amazing.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 10:38 AM

Dracula? As a ballet? Okay.......

Well PT, as you probably suspected, any response from me will not be helpful to you and only go to show more of what a cultural cretin I really am. Back in high school, the members of the Youth Symphony ushered for the Columbus Symphony concerts. I tried desperately in those years to try and achieve some level of understanding of both opera and ballet. Obviously, I was a dismal failure. I remember listening to Roberta Peters and trying to follow along with what was happening according to the program notes. I finished long before the opera did.

Twice a year, the symphony gave a "mixed performance" where the first chair youth players sat in with the adults. My first one of these was for a ballet, which I had never seen live before. I couldn't help but find it humorous when the thudding of leaping dancers was almost overwhelming. Evan Whalon, the conductor, actually admonished me publicly in rehearsal that if I didn't control myself, I wouldn't be around. Wanting to retain my place, I did. My next experience was watching another ballet where again, like the opera, I was completely baffled by what was going on. It never did, and still does not, make any sense......to me.

You are an intelligent and well cultured man PT......Allow yourself this one "indulgence." Have a laugh.......You won't lose your spot.

Spaw

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 10:42 AM

Have a laugh.......You won't lose your spot.


LOL!! Best advice I've seen this lifetime, Spaw!

A

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 12:49 PM

Well, thanks for the contributions. I seem to have miffed Kaleea -- by conventions I meant the assumptions you make in any sport or theatre that are part of the structure and vocabulary of the form. I find the ballet conventions unconvincing -- maybe in part because they seem to be unnecessarily broad in signalling emotion -- to caricature, I cannot count the number of ballets I have seen in which the main idea is woman flutters, man advances, woman rejects with disdainful arm movements, man bounds around, woman falls into arms. In a ballet like Romeo and Juliet, my basic response is: why don't you open your mouths and talk, as opposed to these ridiculous semaphore signals? (I have a similar reaction in my prejudice against soccer -- since God gave you hands, it does seem weird not to be able to use them more in soccer.). The conventions in opera are ridiculous too, but I seem to be able to translate them into something akin to life.

I frame all this by repeating that I am an ignorant swine.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM

Well, Peter, you could say the same about water polo too. Why splash around in the water when the game would be so much easier to play on dry land? Why bother to paint a landscape when you could take a photograph? Why sing when you could just blurt it out? Ballet, opera, and such have certain conventions by which they are defined. It's called "Art."

"The feet THUD?" Both my sisters took ballet and they walk very lightly. The fourteen-year-old daughter of a friend of mine has studied ballet for ten years (she saw a performance of The Nutcracker when she was four, and went berserk until her parents let her take ballet lessons) and has been doing a lot of performing lately. She walks so softly you can't even hear her.

I wish to heck my upstairs neighbor would take some ballet lessons. She usually comes home at about 1:00 a.m. and moves around her apartment a lot—for the next couple of hours! I don't understand how such a small woman can be so HEAVY when she walks! She makes the light fixtures in our bedroom rattle.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: GUEST,gelfling
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:18 AM

hecate is right -
northern ballet's dracula was stunning, including a successful and sexy pas de deux (couple dance) between two men - the lightly built jonathan harker, and the more muscular dracula.
yum :)

their version of cinderella was also very good...

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: GUEST,gelfling
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 06:22 AM

i would also highly recommend any perfornance of "little red rooster" - somewhere between ballet and modern dance, which i find is more watchable than either form on its own - all done to stones tracks...

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 07:05 AM

I went to see the Ballet Rambert (I've probably spelt it wrong but you know the one I mean) doing "ghost dances" to music by Incantation.
   What a crock of shit.
   You couldn't see the musicians, and the dancers (if that's what you call them) were incapable of hitting the stage in time with the music.
   All this elitist bolloxs was subsidised by the Arts Council of course, without any democratic accountability by the people who paid for it.
   The sooner these parasites have to fend for themselves in the real commercial world the better.
   
   All the best PP.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 07:48 AM

Are we to perceive that you ain't too fond of ballet PP?

Spaw

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:35 AM

I confess I never did figure out water polo, though I am sure it would make a great ballet (Ballet Rambert, are you listening?). The one I could never figure out was synchronised swimming. Japanese level weird or what? yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:49 AM

Hi Spaw.
   I think that would be an accurate assessment of my opinions visa vie this particular "art" form.
   All the best PP

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: GUEST,Whippet
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 08:53 AM

There all a bunch of nancy boys. You be betterer bashing your head agin a brick wall

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: GUEST,the bitch
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 03:17 PM

I dont care if they are nancies Whippet I just love to see the women using the shelf they put down the front of their tights to stand on!

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:29 PM

This reminds me of a story in which a theater owner came upon a dog sitting in the audience with its owner. When he got over his astonishment, he quietly asked what the dog was doing. "Enjoying the movie" was the reply. The theater owner replied that that was extraordinary. "Yes, especially since he hated the book," said the dog owner.

Relax and enjoy. It is not a matter of life or death.

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 04:30 PM

Subject: RE: What is with Ballet?
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Oct 02 - 05:45 PM

I was lucky enough to have subscriptions to NY City Ballet and American Ballet Theatre as well as get tickets to see every visiting company possible. Balanchine's "black and white" ballets are my favorites. All studies in movement. The most moving moments? Ballet Cuba with an ancient Alicia Alonzo being taken half blind through her performance by a beautiful young man who seemed to think she might break. Kirstein's tearful announcement of the death of Balanchine and the brilliant performance that followed. Nureyev's "Afternoon Of The Fawn" and "Spectre Of The Rose". Pure romance.

Spaw, you clod. I would have cracked you this side of your head! Lucky for them that they weren't doing the Willies scene from Giselle. You might have been uncontrollable.