Metasongs, songs within songs

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: davidg
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:54 PM

From "END OF THE LINE" (Traveling Wilburys): "Maybe somewhere down the road when somebody plays Purple Haze."

Also, The Beatles' "GLASS ONION" mentions "O-Bla-Dee Oh-Bla-Da"(however you spell that) and makes reference to "I am the Walrus."

Which set me to thinking: is there another example of a song that refers to another song that was written by the same person? (You'd never know I majored in English) Anyhow, I can think of one other:

"SARA" by Bob Dylan:

Stayin' up for days
In the Chelsea Hotel
Writin' "Sad-Eyed Lady
Of the Lowlands" for you.

Any others?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 03:54 PM

Ooh, incestuous metasongs, hmmm. I think Simon refers to an old Simon and Garfunkel tune somewhere, but it's not coming up. Will keep thinking.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Bert
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 11:37 PM

Back in the seventies there was a song called "Old Buck Jones Guitar" (or something like that) which mentioned "Wildwood Flower", "Old joe Clark" and "Cindy Lou".
AND in my own "Plastic Flower Seeds" I mention "Barbry Allen"

Bert.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:48 AM

Ron Kavana's "MIDNIGHT ON THE WATER" is an interesting example of the genre.

"Play me a fiddle tune, sing me a song
Banish Misfortune, my time is not long
Midnight on the water, so steady and slow
The Lark in the morning, one more for the road
Midnight on the water, so steady and slow.
Let's have another drink so set 'em up Joe

I have wondered from time to time which of these phrases are fiddle tunes and which are not. I know that Midnight on the Water is. I know that Banish Misfortune is. I know that Lark in the Morning is.

But how about My Time is not Long? is that a tune, or just part of the song lyric. I assume there is NOT a fiddle tune called Let's Have another Drink, and I would be totally amazed if there was a tune called Set 'Em up Joe

Murray

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:04 AM

If Old Orange Flute is mentioned here so should its counterpart from the other side of the divide, mentioning lots of Irish rebel songs, namely THE FENIAN RECORD PLAYER.

Also, a song mentioning only titles from one single songwriter should be listed here: CYRIL SAID IT ALL BEFORE.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:07 AM

A borrowed and referenced guitar lick from the Beatle's "I Feel Fine" occurs in "DON'T CALL US (WE'LL CALL YOU)" by Sugarloaf

Said: Listen, kid, you paid for the call
You ain't bad but I've heard it all before
He said: it sounds a little bit like John, Paul, and George and Ringo; famous guitar riff

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: campfire
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:15 AM

In Bill Staines' "ROSEVILLE FAIR":

"I can hear them now, playing "Comin' through the Rye".

campfire

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:28 AM

Rory McLeod's song BACK TO DONEGAL makes reference to quite a number of both tunes and songs from Paddy on the Turnpike and Eileen Oige (sp?) to I Ain't Got No Home In This World Anymore and The Town I loved So Well. Unfortunately, I don't have the lyrics to hand at the moment and couldn't find them on the Internet.

Brian

Subject: Lyr Add: ONE FOR MY BABY^^
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 08:44 AM

Murray: Here are the complete (I think) lyrics to Ron Kavana's Midnight on the Water.

"Set 'em up, Joe" is a phrase from this song, which isn't in DT, but should be, because it's such a classic:

ONE FOR MY BABY (AND ONE MORE FOR THE ROAD)
(Words by Johnny Mercer, music by Harold Arlen, 1943.)

It's quarter to three,
There's no one in the place except you and me,
So, set 'em up, Joe,
I've got a little story you oughta know,
We're drinking, my friend,
To the end of a brief episode,
Make it one for my baby
And one more for the road.

I got the routine,
So drop another nickel in the machine,
I'm feelin' so bad,
I wish you'd make the music dreamy and sad,
Could tell you a lot,
But that's not in a gentleman's code,
Make it one for my baby
And one more for the road.

You'd never know it,
But, buddy, I'm a kind of poet
And I've got a lotta things to say.
And when I'm gloomy,
You simply gotta listen to me,
Until it's talked away.

Well, that's how it goes
And Joe, I know you're gettin' anxious to close,
So thanks for the cheer,
I hope you didn't mind my bending your ear,
This torch I've found,
Must be drowned or it soon might explode,
Make it one for my baby
And one more for the road.

[Created for the film, "The Sky's The Limit," 1943.]

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:24 AM

Long time since I learned "Midnight on the Water", but I have always sung "The lark in the morning", rather than "Stay up till the morning" as in Suzanne's lyric. I am prepared to be corrected however.

Murray

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Tanner
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 10:28 AM

When June Tabor did Eric Bogle's *No Man's Land*, they really played *The Flowers of the Forest* reel in a finale.

Of course, there is a Scottish pipe tune called *Bonaparte's Retreat*.

*Oh take me away boys, for me time is not long* - it's from a popular Irish song called *Fiddler's Green*. It's about place *...where the fishermen's go/ If they don't go to hell*. :-)

The old Irish rebel Band Wolfe Tones have put on their album titled *Spirit of the Nation* two related songs. An old woman, the main character of *Down by the Glenside* is singing the chorus of *Bold Fenian Men*, actually the next track.

I personally think it's a good thing (or should I say *a good tradition*?) that some new songs and some old ones have common points. Very attractive feature of traditional music, when nobody cares of that god damned copyrights.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 11:22 AM

Murray: Here's another transcription of Midnight on the Water that gives the line "Good luck in the morning"!

"The lark in the morning" sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: LR Mole
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 12:43 PM

Jackson Browne, in "HOLD OUT", sings, "How we laughed when we first knew love / singing lum-di-lum-di-lie...", a reference to "MICKEY'S MONKEY" by Smokey Robinson.

And "Do You Like Soul Music" is, I think, "Sweet Soul Music" by Arthur Connelly (which itself is a gloss on a song called "YEAH, MAN"). Begs for a folk version, a la "Old Time Religion".

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: davidg
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:09 PM

In Kate and Anna McGarrigle's "SONG FOR GABY" on the same record ("Matapedia") as the above-mentioned "Going Back to Harlan," Anna sings "Jane was in the choir-loft with Rufus at her side, they played and sang 'What'll I Do When You Are Far Away?'" This is the great Irving Berlin song that they later recorded on "The McGarrigle Hour."

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:36 PM

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned "CHRISTMAS IN THE TRENCHES" with the various carols mentioned within.

GUEST Tanner, I'm not so sure that "Fiddler's Green" is Irish (although, doubtless I will be corrected in this).

Good luck

Walrus

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:50 PM

Fiddler's Green is English

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 01:54 PM

Now that this thread is back topside anyway--I just listened to "Wind and Rain" again this a.m. and realized the last verse makes it a metasong. But I don't have the strength to read through 66 posts to see if anybody mentioned that already.

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,SharonA
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 06:12 PM

James Taylor's "That's Why I'm Here": "Playin' 'Fire and Rain' again and again and again..."

Tom Lehrer's "Christmas Carol" sings the first line each of 3 carols (Hark the Herald Angels Sing, God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen, Angels We Have Heard on High).

And let's not forget all the rap songs that "borrow" the tunes of other artists (the recent one that uses [abuses] "Angel of the Morning" springs to mind).

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 07:40 PM

"RED NECKS, WHITE SOCKS, AND BLUE RIBBON BEER" mentions "THERE STANDS THE GLASS" (which, being bourgeois to the core, I have never heard).

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Jun 01 - 11:16 PM

Chicken Charlie: Don't you have a "find" feature on your web browser?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 07:22 PM

Jim--Yeah, but it's more fun talking to myself. All good schizophrenics do it. Some day I will remember that FIND is there; I hope I clean up my act before aliens from another thread tell me I don't "respect" my computer because I don't use it right. :)

CC

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jun 01 - 07:59 PM

Warren Zevon: [PLAY IT ALL NIGHT LONG]

"Sweet Home Alabama Play that dead band song Turn the speakers up full blast Play it all night long"

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:41 AM

A prime example for this type of songs has been found and posted by pavane here: VILIKEN'S MEDLEY.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Grab
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

Add another I've just learnt, a recent Tom Paxton one called "GETTING UP EARLY" - a line in the chorus goes "We'd sing 'Mr Tambourine Man' then".

Graham.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Alice in Montana
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:56 PM

The Piper of Dundee and the Galway Shawl, previously mentioned, were the first that came to my mind. I haven't been reading the Mudcat very much in the last few months, so I missed this thread when it started. Thanks for bringing it back up, Wolfgang (saw the link in pavane's thread).

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Alice
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 02:28 PM

Another song that lists many tunes is in Colm O Lochlainn's Irish Street Ballads, THE PIPER'S TUNES. It is sung to the same tune as COURTIN' IN THE KITCHEN.

There are eleven verses of THE PIPER'S TUNES in O Lochlainn's book. I'll check and see if it is already in the DT or archive before posting them.

Alice Flynn

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 06:48 PM

Another one in the Bodley Library is called 'New song of songs'.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 07:43 PM

Lindy Lou

Bit late, And I am sure that you have spotted same but consider "hymns and Aria's

" We sang "Cwm Rhondda" and "Delila" and they sounded just the same
Saturday was Sunday, Hymns came on a tray
Only half remembered, I wonder What H'll say"

Or again, take the "Trip to Twickenham" ( Well You did )

"So we give him that old bottle
That once held bitter Ale
He started singing "Hymns and Arias", "Land of my Fathers","Ar hud y nos(all through the night)"

For Non SWELCH Catters the rest of the Story is not fit for tender ears
It refers to the lack of Public Toilets at Twickenham, Head Quarters of the English Rugby Union, and how the lads releaved themselves into empty beer bottles
and passed them off as beer to wandering English fans.

To CAMRA members - it prooved the average English upper Class twit can't tell the difference between P*ss and Watneys.

Sorry, 5 pints of Brains S.A.and a shot of "Pussers" have removed my inhibitions.

Thank God it's Friday.

On a more serious note "Willie MacBrides Reply" (DT) takes a nice swipe at " The band Played Walsing Matilda", also by Eric Bogle.

In the spirit of the forum, a pint, if you drink near Cardiff (dialect Kairdif) Or a "Virtual Pint" if you don't live, or visit nearby, to the first Catter to identify the line(s)

Gareth

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mudlark
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 01:54 AM

Along the lines of Lambeth Walk is another "dance" song that names itself...Ballin' the Jack ("And that's what I call Ballin the Jack). And there's not only Tenn. Waltz, but The All New Tennessee Waltz (It's the all new Tenn. Waltz, literally waltzing on air...).

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Sourdough
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 11:26 AM

...and in The Yellow Rose of TEsas is:

You can talk about your "Clementine"
And sing of "Aura Lee"
But the Yellow Rose of Texas
Is the only one for me.

Sourdough

Subject: Lyr Add: THE PIPER'S TUNES
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 12:16 PM

THE PIPER'S TUNES
from Colm O Lochlainn's Irish Street Ballads

As I rov'd thro' the town to view the pretty lasses,
The old maids with a frown, peeped at me o'er their glasses,
To Cove we will go down, to view the lasses pretty,
And the sailor men also which sets forth all its beauty.

ch. Ritooral-oo-ral-ah, Ritooral-oo-ral-addy,
Ritooral-oo-ral-ah, Ritooral-oo-ral-addy.

There's Captain Burke of Grove, a very famous name, sirs,
He keeps the buck and doe, and hunts the sporting game,
sirs,
He winds the whip and spur, and makes the hunters rattle,
And when that home he comes, he'll surely crack a bottle.

John Blake for to promote, he plays some tunes so merry,
He gave some charming notes, to banish melancholy,
He'll then blow up the pipes, to play the tune "Brave Larry",
You'd laugh until you die to hear "Sweet Paddy Carey".

He'd play the Prussian Wars, the fall of the Boyne Water,
Jeannette and Jeannot and the march of Alexander,
The blooming White Cockade, the Old Brigade is coming,
O'Connell's in for Clare, and All the bells were ringing.

He played the Collen Bawn, the banks of Kitty's Cottage,
The affermoniou jig, called - My Mother's mess of pottage.
The Wexford Rakes in style, and Trip the world before him,
The Sailor's Hornpipe, and Garryowen and Glory.

He played Kitty from Athlone, with Moreen móra Glanna,
Noreen on the road, and the flashy Rakes of Mallow.
Aughrim's overthrow, and the fall of Carrig Castle,
Brave Sarsfield took command at many a famous battle.

He played the Chorus jig, the ancient Ladies' Fancy,
Jack and the Jug of Punch, and the Bonnie highland laddie,
The Ale-house in great glee, with the Glass of brandy
The Roving sporting wheel - My love he is a dandy.

Nora Creena he can play, with all the variations,
The Rambler from Tralee, the De'il among the Tailors,
The Job of journey work, and the Boy she left behind her,
The song of Paddy Whack, and Tally-hi-ho the grinder.

He played up Bob and Joan, with Ju Ju Joice the joker,
The famous jig Tow-row, that was kept for Captain Croker,
The Ball of Ballinafad, and the Banks of Bannow
Plunkett's Moll in the wad, and Shawn O'Deer a'Glana.

He played of Bonaparte, who crossed the Alps in winter,
The Union hornpipe, and the Killinick fox hunters,
The song of Patrick's Day, and the jig of Paddy Carroll,
And each boy will Kiss the Maid behind the whiskey barrel.

So now I'll sing no more, because my song is ended,
If I said anything wrong I hope you're not offended
Of hornpipes, jigs and reels, I'm sure I told you many,
Get up and shake your heels, 'tis better sport than any.
---------

The melody is like "Courtin' in the Kitchen". The words in O Lochlainn's book are written sometimes with lower case letters in the titles throughout the verses, just as I copied it down. I can scan the notation if anyone wants it.

There are tunes mentioned in this song that I would be interested in knowing more about, like Ju Ju Joice the joker.

Alice

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Alice
Date: 21 Jul 01 - 12:20 PM

I wondered as I typed this up (The Piper's Tunes) if it is supposed to be "when back home" instead of "when that home he comes". I copied it as it is written in the songbook.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Burke
Date: 22 Jul 01 - 03:18 PM

Barbara mentioned Shelley Posen's "Fa-Sol-La." The song itself is entirely about a type of music (Sacred Harp) it includes a portion of Showers of Blessings, and I am pretty sure makes internal reference to several more Sacred Harp tunes.

Rick Fielding has also recorded it. He sings it with the Showers of Blessings reference, but leaves out actually singing it. I guess 'cause he could not do a 4 part fuge solo.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: pavane
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:06 AM

I have just turned up a modern and humorous 'song of songs' from my archives. I will transcribe and post it later, if possible.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 08:35 AM

Looks like pavanne never did get around to this... :-)

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: pavane
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 03:16 AM

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: pavane
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 03:17 AM

OOps - clicked Submit by mistake.

You are right, I totally forgot about it, and I can't even remember what it was now!

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 10:10 AM

When he tried it again it played Croppies, Lie Down

--The Auld Orange Flute

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Santa
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 10:13 AM

Dave (Strawbs) Cousins has "Georgia on your mind" in his tribute to Sandy Denny.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 10:18 AM

Not sure of the title, but it's a trubute to Maybelle Carter where several of the songs she played are mentioned and then a guitar picks a verse or chorus of the tune. I think Johnny Cash is one of the people singing it.

~S~

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:28 PM

And the band played Waltzing Matilda
As the ship pulled away from the quai....

The Band PLayed Waltzing Matilda.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:41 PM

What's that song with the chorus that goes "Fanny Adams, Fanny Adams, don't sing 'Fanny Adams'"?

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Margret RoadKnight
Date: 30 Sep 03 - 08:33 PM

Kristen Lems' - '50 Sound
Kate McGarrigle's - Work Song

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Uncle Phil
Date: 03 Oct 03 - 09:47 PM

How about Iris DeMent's song Mama's Opry..

"And we sang Sweet Rose of Sharon Abide with Me,
til I ride The Gospel Ship to Heaven's Jubilee,
on That Great Triumphant Morning My Soul Will Be Free,
My Burdens Will Be Lifted When My Savior's Face I See,
I Don't Want To Get Adjusted To This World Below,
I know He'll Pilot Me When It Comes My Time To Go,
Oh there's nothing in this world that's half as dear to me,
As the sound of my Mama's Opry"

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 03:09 PM

I just remembered the song/story that Ed McCurdy did about the teakettle that wanted to sing like people, and when he got the chance he sang Annie Laurie, Lo hear the gentle lark, (a few others I forget) "and several things from Rigoletto. He sang all the songs he had always wanted to sing..." - great story!

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Burke
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:09 PM

Shelley Posen's FA, SOL, LA is about Sacred Harp singing & refers to Wondrous Love, Parting Hand, and Showers of Blessings.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Sep 04 - 08:34 PM

Just to be a bit pedantic: Most of the songs referred to above are not in fact metasongs, but simply references to other songs.

A proper metasong, or song within a song, would be one that is contained, not simply referred to, by another song. And I can only think of one such song, in any genre, by Sir Andrew Lloyd-Webber in the musical Cats, where Gus The Theatre Cat refers to the story of a character he played, and in doing so literally changes song, only to return to his original song after he has finished telling the story.

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 12:40 AM

Speaking of pedantry,

Wouldn't Bonaparte's Retreat" and one of the sets of words to "Ashokan Farewell" be self-referential songs?

"You have now started to read the sentence you have just finished."

clint

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:27 AM

There was a reference to 'Flowers of the Forest' as a REEL !!!! (June Tabor's Band Played W M ) . It is in fact a lament , written I believe after Culloden , and the mere idea of doing it up tempo would
cause a riot in ANY good pipe band .

Subject: RE: Metasongs, songs within songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Sep 04 - 11:29 AM

And incidentally , Dave Houlden wrote a LOVELY parody of FOUR of Eric Bogles songs in ONE song . PM Trayton to see if there is another print due od Daves WONDERFUL songs .