Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn

Subject: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: Mysha
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 08:28 PM

Hi,

Some folk probably know a song of that title, as do I. And though English is not my native language, I understand most of it. Some references to folk-lore are beyond me, but other than that: I don't actually know "Thorn" as a tree.

Apart from a letter, what I would call "thorn" is a way a plant may grow, with prickling results. So lots of trees may grown thorny, probably if there's not enough water to go around, but to me it doesn't refer to a specific tree, like the Oak and the Ash do.

What is it that other listeners do understand, that I don't?

And what and is and the and reason and for and the and excess and of and concatination and?

Bye
Mysha

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: Reinhard
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 12:47 AM

Kipling's poem hast the title "A Tree Song". When Peter Bellamy recorded it he called it "Oak, Ash & Thorn", no extra "and".

The poem has lines of (mostly) alternating eight and six syllables with the stress on every second syllable. What sounds better?

Greater are none beneath the Sun,
Than Oak, and Ash, and Thorn.

or

Greater are none beneath the Sun,
Than Oak, Ash, and Hawthorn.

(or blackthorn, it doesn't matter)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: GUEST,Andrew Bushmill
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 03:46 AM

I've always heard it's a specific reference to Blackthorn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 04:50 AM

It's "Thorn of the Down" in the poem, which will be the chalk downs of Sussex. There are thorn trees and scrub of all varieties on the Downs but I imagine a typical solitary windswept tree under which, in high summer, I have certainly lain down after a picnic.

Are these solitary trees mainly hawthorns? I think so, but I've not particularly noticed. I see blackthorn mainly in hedges, and I wouldn't want to crawl under any sort if thorn hedge for a nap!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 06:34 AM

My first thought would be hawthorn. With all its references in folklore and also because it's more of a tree than the blackthorn, which I feel is more of a bush most of the time..

Hawthorns are part of hedgerows too, often 'laid' to provide an almost impenetrable barrier to cattle.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 10:10 AM

I asks Herself about blackthorns and hawthorns, seeing as she's the born countrywoman around these parts.

"Why do you want to know?" says she.
"Someone's mentioning Oak & Ash & Thorn," says I.
"Oh, that'll be hawthorn," says she without a moment's hesitation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: GUEST,Anne Lister sans cookie
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 12:10 PM

I'd also say hawthorn. And according to a good friend who was raised in a family with lots of old traditions, if you see oak, ash and hawthorn together it marks a fairy path.
Many stories and ballads suggest that falling asleep under a hawthorn may be unwise, as you never know who might wake you up, or take you prisoner

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: Hagman
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 11:44 PM

See also Child 67A "Glasgerion" (p. 136, Vol. II of my 1965 Dover edition.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: Hagman
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 11:48 PM

(Bronson, 1962) titles it "Glenkindie." Neither reference clarifies the thorny issue under discussion, but may help....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 10 Jan 23 - 05:04 PM

Information on Mainly Norfolk https://mainlynorfolk.info/peter.bellamy/songs/atreesong.html

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: GUEST,Oak labyrinth
Date: 10 Jan 23 - 11:43 PM

Dearly love the ‘cat community :)
   I live where the only oaks are Quercus macrocarpa (Bur oak) ~ this is thread-drift, I know, but næthelesse Oak Ash & Thorn include the AngloSaxon letters æsc [sic] and thorn.
One of the few lyrics I’ve done is a lament on the vagaries of English orthography, with a font devoid of yogh, ash, eth, and thorn. [need Skarpi’s Icelandic keyboard]
Collected thorny branches for my wife’s Sunday School kids one Easter ~ reckon they were hawthorn. The moveable feast must have been early that year, as I waded through deep snow for the “Children’s Time” prop.
Best in ‘23, folkies folklorists musicking Mudcat denizens ??

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 04:02 AM

And like many of Kipling's poems there is a Background Page on the Kipling Society website.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 13 Jan 23 - 08:26 AM

Hawthorn be the Lady's tree, burn it not or cursed you'll be.

I had a go at a series of tree catalogue songs.

Hawthorn is in Part 2.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: Mo the caller
Date: 13 Jan 23 - 10:01 AM

it is by the Irish said Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak & Ash & Thorn
From: DaveRo
Date: 13 Jan 23 - 01:08 PM

See also The Woodcutter's Song
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=29037