tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:50 PM

There's The Old Resting Chair too. Another one with an "accidental" that doesn't sound at all whiny country.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 02:35 PM

A C major in D may not be in the Scottish Tradition as Scottish Pipes are NOT tuned to D , but the Equivalent crops up in a hell of a lot of Pipe tunes !

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:29 PM

The C natural in Ashokan Farewell, sitting at the end of a phrase as a long note, is actually quite jarring and ugly. Very affected. Try playing it to yourself, even in your mind, a few times over. It's pretty unattractive once its rather meretricious gloss has worn off.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:46 PM

And that C is not playing the same role as the mixolydian flattened seventh in pipe tunes (the tune is major authentic, with several C sharps - pipes can't vary the pitch of the seventh degree).

I suspect it was inspired by the "major to minor" bit in that ghastly Cole Porter number.

It's sometimes possible to head off an impending "Ashokan Farewell" by starting "My Cape Breton Home" instead.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM

Ok, everyone's entitled to their opinion, so mine is diametrically opposed to some expressed here.I'm with Tootler and Leadfingers!
For me, the tune works best as a slow air/lament: the slower the better, and please, OMG NO NO oom-ching-ching of accordion basses turning it into a waltz. The C chord (yes C) is just fine too. Yes, wallow shamelessly, and enjoy it!!
And has the person who wants it in strict tempo never heard of rubato? It can even work in a session, provided the other musicians are actually listening to the leading player, and not just getting their heads down and taking off at their own pace.
The recording that really hit the high spots with Classic FM (and where I first heard the tune some years ago, before it got so popular on the folk scene) was with Major J R Perkins conducting the Band of the Royal Marines: I think it was this version that was used as the theme music to The American Civil War" TV series. This, and the version played by Aly Bain and Jay Ungar himself on the first series of Transatlantic sessions are the definitives performances IMHO.
See aso a long thread started in 1998!

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:28 PM

D - C is a 6th in the circle of fifths - no - not C#, C natural!

"The C natural in Ashokan Farewell, sitting at the end of a phrase as a long note, is actually quite jarring and ugly. Very affected"

Well, if some WILL insist playing every damn tune at 600 mph, it is 'ugly and affected'! And then, of course there's 'Indian Music' what with its microtones, etc, it is an abomination too! :-P

BUT, if you play all those slow 'Air' pieces sensitively and paced according to their soul, that disputed note hangs in the air plaintively, asking for resolution - the 6th usually wants to go to the fifth, but eventually it will end up at the tonic.

It's a 'tour de force' for me on the Piano Accordion (and a pipe organ), what with register changes in the bass, and clever use of the different keyboard register stops that allow differing tonal timbres. When combined with 'tremolo' - keyboard wobble - and subtle pace changes as per the 'soul' of the Air (where that C 'hangs'), it also sounds totally unlike anything any player who belts through everything at 600 mph has ever heard - or probably never heard! :-)

I once was at a 'chalk board walk up' session (5 mins max per act), and this very piece was played before me in the queue by a lady and guy - think it was a banjo and hammer dulcimer, or similar, in much the 'traditional' way you have all heard it. I did it a few acts after them, 'my way'!!! and they approached me afterwards, saying that they had never heard it done THAT way before and were amazed at how different and beautiful the tune sounded!

We agreed that since it was one of the few pieces that I CAN 'hold in my head' without refresher music :-) I didn't really have any option but to play my 'party piece' that they had 'stolen' by getting in first! We also agreed that the 2 renditions were SO different, that it detracted from NEITHER performance nor performers, unlike when a piece is normally played in succession by 2 separate acts, in a similar style, so not only 'no harm done' by either, :-) but that the piece was so good that the piece itself only benefited by the two totally contrasting styles played in the same session.

~~~~~~~~~
And thanks to Rowan who said "Robin, I reckon your story above (which I've seen on a couple of other threads) is one that bears repeated reiteration; in this case, the latter is not tautologous."

I reiter... retatter, oh damn, I'll just tell it again...

QUOTE
My dad was a very good amateur Classical Violinist - was 2nd lead when a teenager in a private orchestra before WWII started.

When I had been taking piano lessons for a year or two, and knew everything, I said "Hey Dad, look how fast I can play!"

He stopped what he was doing, smiled to my Mum, got out his violin, set up, and the drew the bow across one string so slowly from frog to tip that it almost was not moving. When it reached the tip, he reversed. The tone was soft, clear and unwavering.

Then he smiled and said "Son, any fool can play fast and loud. It takes Talent, Training, and Practice to play slow and soft."

I have never forgotten, no matter what of the many instruments I dabble with, is in my hands.
UNQUOTE

It's all YOUR fault Rowan! :-p

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:32 PM

"please, OMG NO NO oom-ching-ching of accordion basses turning it into a waltz"

Hah! Which is WHY the way I do it - WITHOUT ANY 'accordion' BOOM! CHA! CHA! - works - what with all the subtle pace changes, there's no way even the Irish could dance to it! :-P

"rubato"

Damn! another muso with classical Music training! Knows all the big Latin words too! Sprung! :-)

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:39 PM

Glad to hear it Foolestroupe: that comment wasn't specifically aimed at you!
Molto allargando!

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:37 PM

Actually, a few people who were in on some of the Mudcat online group sessions a few years ago heard my feeble beginning attempts at this piece via a low quality microphone while trying to play in a cramped space. Strangely enough, I have since improved my rendition of this...

Would dearly love to find such sessions again - I heard lots of great stuff!

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: banjoman
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM

I absolutley love this tune., and play it often, usually on the long neck (E) banjo as a solo piece. I use a keith key to lower the bottom string by a semi tone and use G shape chords. Sometimes my wife (mrs banjoman) joins in using a very old wooden trebble recoreder and the effect is astounding.
This tune could never be overplayed

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:20 AM

Thanks for the stories, Foolestroupe.

Everybody's entitled to their opinion. We're also entitled to do arithmetic. I just checked, and U.S. Eastern time, (Mudcat time) is five hours behind the time in England. Therefore, a crabbed and illogical post from somebody English that says 7:46 pm was actually posted at 12:46 a.m, most probably after the pub closed and the evening's alcohol has turned from fun to misery.

Just something to keep in mind.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:50 AM

I'm a night owl. 12:46 is early.

Another very much better slow air I can't get out of my head at the moment: Paul Cranford's "The Graveyard of the Gulf". Needing a retuned fiddle, it's never going to be a session tune, though.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:43 AM

I got kind of tired of this tune a few years ago, after hearing it everywhere trad players of any stripe congregated, but lately I've revived it for my students. First, it's a good tune, and that alone is excuse enough. Second, it's modern enough but in a traditional style, bringing new breath to old music. Third, young students are to be the future carriers of tunes, so they should be taught tunes, new and old and in between.

Seems to me that folks in Upper Canada are losing touch with tunes. Is that true elsewhere?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:12 PM

It's a tune - like any other - and everyone's taste differs. Like it, dislike it, play it fast, slow or indifferently, it's there in the list of tunes to be played. And very popular it is - I wouldn't have minded writing it! The differences in opinion here simply reflect... the tastes of the people who wrote the posts.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:27 PM

According to an interview with the composer in Fiddler magazine (a couple of years ago?), Mr. Ungar has been "greatly offended" by the multitudes who have attempted to put words to the tune.

He insisted that it was composed as a tune and there should be NO WORDS TO IT.

A few weeks later, he grudgingly "approved" two different sets of lyrics, "due to popular demand for verses;" but with the comment that he'd still rather they not be sung.

His complaint was much akin, with similar level of expressed opprobrium, to the one by the composer of "Nail that Catfish to a Tree," who said in a similar interview: "everybody plays those two notes WRONG."

Unfortunately, my notes on these articles are still "in storage" so I'm afraid I can't give advice on the "correct" and "composer approved" details of either.

John

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:01 PM

Sod the composer- it's not up to him. That's what tradition- a process involving natural selection - does. He has two choices: (1) insist that no one plays it except how he approves, and uses the law to enforce his preferences (2) let it develop, in which case his preferences are just one set among many.

If choice (1), he'll spend a fortune to ensure it's forgotten within 20 years.

If choice (2), anything could happen.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:29 PM

Just going back to the original title of this thread, I quite like the concept of someone being called "O'Shokun"...

Q: And who the divil are you?
A: Dermot O'Shokan.

Great.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:30 PM

Seems to me that folks in Upper Canada are losing touch with tunes. Is that true elsewhere?

What do you mean by "losing touch with tunes"?

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:28 AM

"Nail that Catfish to a Tree"

Ok - I looked at the score - it's a simple 3 chorder I IV V, nothing awkward, - just what 2 notes could be played wrong?

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 11:16 AM

Here's one set of notes to 'Nail that Catfish...'

http://www.nigelgatherer.com/tunes/tab/tab13/nailc.html

I suspect that the 'two notes' referred to are the long C's in the B part. They just seem to beg to be special.

As I'm sure we all know, there are a number of things one could do: play an ornament, play them unusually softly, play them quite loudly, or start flat and gradually bring it up to pitch. (I don't think the opposite - starting sharp and coming down, is done much or at all.)

However, the only way this will be resolved is if the composer plays it and posts it.   It's music - it won't get anywhere unless people can hear it.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:15 PM

The composer does have a webpage for "Nail That Catfish to a Tree", with both a full-speed MP3 and a slowed-down one for learning it.

It didn't inspire me to make the effort, though I don't mind the tune - I figured that with "Push the Pig's Foot a Little Further Into the Fire" and "The Fisherman's Song for Attracting Seals", I had enough cruelty-to-animals tunes in my repertoire already.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:13 PM

I'll look for that page.

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: GLoux
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:23 PM

Joe O writes: The Ken Burns "National Parks" series credits Jay Ungar and Molly Mason for music, but doesn't say which tunes they provided. Anybody know? There's a very nice guitar solo that plays during the menu, and in parts of the program. I'm guessing that's a Jay Ungar composition.
-Joe-

Joe, I think you're referring to "The Love Of My Life" which Jay wrote for Ken Burns' wedding and used in "National Parks"...Jay and Molly have it available for free download at: http://www.jayandmolly.com/loveofmylife.shtml
-Greg

Subject: RE: tune id: o shokuns farewell (Ashokan)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:17 PM

Thanks, GLoux. it's a lovely tune.