Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery

Subject: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: GUEST,shashi
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 11:33 AM

How come so many songs are counted in thus :

A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4

The TWO there is the problem....

What's it doing there - everyone KNOWS it's really a 3 in disguise!

I can see that it may help those who are about to march for some reason .. maybe thats its origin.

Karaoke tapes use it .. Lots of rock bands use it. Aebersold jazz training albums use it hundreds of times. Tuition albums of all kinds use it without explanation.. I'm sure many a ceilidh band does the same thing.

Does it have advantages?

What are it's origins?

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:14 PM

Who knows - but I always thought that it divided the metre first into two beats, and then into four. Kind of 2/2 and 4/4. So, no confusion with the three this way.

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM

It helps to make sure that the drummer and bass player are awake before the song starts.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 12:58 PM

Although variously observed, I was told by one of my friends that it was explained in his class on "conducting the orchestra" that the "Ah" was meant to indicate to the orchestra that the music would start on a pick-up note, which would be the "4" of the count for the following measure.

The first measure is counted on the "beats," of the measure to set the pace of the accents, and the second measure sets the "note pace," which is the speed at which the conductor will lead during the start of the piece.

Ah | ONE Ah TWO (silent Ah)|One Two Three Four| would tell the orchestra that the first note should be on "Four" of the second measure conducted, that the conductor will count four counts per measure, and that there are two "beats" - emphasized counts - in the measure.

ONE and TWO and|One Two Three Four|ONE would tell the orchestra that there are to be four counts per measure, two beats on the first and third counts, and the first note played comes on the ONE of the first "played measure."

ONE AND AH TWO AND AH|One Two|One Two would be a March in 6/8 time that the conductor will "beat" at two strokes per measure, while a jig would have to be ONE (and-ah) TWO (and-ah) if the common jig time-warp is intend.

While the "counting" is to some extent "formalized" in the theory, it's not generally necessary for the players to "know" the theory, since it's pretty much natural for even unschooled players to pick up the intention of the leader if the leader uses the count-in "correctly." Having heard someone do something that works, the common ape can imitate quite well without fully understanding the why, and it will work.

But that's just a theory.

John

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: Little Robyn
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:49 PM

I suspect it was a novelty way of counting in that dates from music hall and community sing days. A real conductor wouldn't do that with a symphony orchestra. It's more of a "get ready, here we go" sort of thing.
We always did it in Charlie Mopps:
A one, a two, a three four five well......

Great fun.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM

The friend who related the "method" to me was in graduate study in music at Friends University in Wichita Kansas ca. 1953-'55, specializing in orchestral and choral (church) music.

It is taught as a method in formal music programs, for use by classical orchestral conductors, and they do use it.

My friend went on to a successful music career, performing on TV under the stage name "Snorkey the Elephant" for several seasons.

John

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in myste
From: open mike
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

Ask Lawrence Welk..
the "a" and the "ah" are upbeats
and mid-beats.

"One and two and threee and four and"
demotes the 1/8 th notes that fall between the beats in the measure
(when a quarter note gets one count)
there would be 8 of them in a measure
the time signature of a piece of music is expressed as a fraction
such as 4/4 time or 2/4 time or 3/4 (waltz)
in each of these a quarter note gets one count,
and there are either 4 or 2 or 3 beats per measure
according to the top number in the fraction.

if you want to count out quicker notes
you say One-EE-and-a Two-EE-and-a
these would be sixteenth notes
and there would be 16 of them in a measure

the Indian (as in from India) percussion players
do great vocal practice to illustrate thier rhythms
such as: tak-i-tee-tak-a-tee-tah

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:17 PM

Perhaps this is off-topic, but this thread made me think of this:

There's a number of number rhymes and un-rhyming phrases that serve as introductions to children's rhymes. Among them are:

Zing Zing Zing/and a 1,2,3

**

1,2,3/and the deep blue sea

**

Zing Zing Zing/in the bottom of the sea

**

And a one/and a two/and you know what to do
-snips-


I call these phrases "introductory lines" because the line introduces the rhyme and/or announces that it is going to begin. Imo, this "announcement" is for the performers {so they can hone their concentration skills to better ensure that they "do" the routine right}. I don't think it is an announcement for any audience since there need not be an actual audience for children to do these leisure time activities.

With regard to handclap rhymes, I've noticed that the handclapping and hand slapping routine is usually different for the introductory line than it is for the rest of the rhyme.

**

Btw, I found it interesting that in his 26 Jun 07 - 12:58 post,   JohnInKansas mentioned something about the "ah" {referring to "a-1-a-two a 1 2 3 4"}.

In the Eastern part of the USA {I include Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in "East" though it might also be considered "Midwest"}, African American children usually pronounce "a" as "ah". So, for instance, the rhyme would be "Zing Zing Zing and ah 1,2,3".

I'm not sure if non-African American children use the same pronunciation in the Eastern USA. In other words, I'm not sure if this is a regional, or a racial pronunciation custom, or if it is both, or none of the above. Hence, my curiousity about JohnInKansas' use of "ah" instead of long "a" {as found in the English word "say".

John or anyone else, any information regarding this would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:29 PM

This also may be off-topic:

I found this rhyme in Thomas W. Talley's 1922 book "Negro Folk Rhymes":

A RACE STARTER'S RHYME
One for the money
Two for the show
Three to get ready
And four to go

-snip-

[Kennikat Press edition, 1968, page 180)


This rhyme is probably best known as part of Elvis Presley's "Blues Suede Shoes". However, there's all kinds of variations of "one for the money/two four the show/three to get ready/and _____ in Pop, R&B, and Hip-Hop songs.

I'm wondering if anyone here knows if there is an earlier documentation of this rhyme than the example in Talley's collection.

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:06 AM

Azizi -

I wouldn't attach too much importance to my use of "ah" rather than "a" for the pickup/filler counts. Most "counters" would use a pronunciation approximating what some dictionaries call a "neutral vowel" or "indistinct vowel" that's "present" but has no particularly distinguishing "sound." "Eh" or "uh" would work about as well as either "a" or "ah" for the syllable commonly used counting.

If you really are interested in documenting fine differences in pronunciation, I'd suggest consulting some references on, and learning some use of, the International Phonetic Alphabet.

Unfortunately, the symbols required for representing and discussing sound differences are not easily posted for general readers, and will not be easily understood even by the few who can see the letterforms. The IPA also has undergone several revisions and seems to mutate regularly, so that my semester in Mr N. Chomsky's course back ca. 1960 appears to be totally useless for discussion with linguists using the current IPA.

For a look:

Wiki IPA gives a general discussion of the linguistic/phonetic symbol system used for describing pronunciations more or less accurately.

Wiki IPA English Chart should be handy, but requires significant "learning" to be effectively used.

IPA in Unicode may be of some help in making your own notes on pronunciation, but it's unlikely that most viewers here will be able to see any phonetic codes you use.

Unicode Entities for Phonetic Symbols is similarly good for personal use but not necessarily readable on a site like Mudcat, unless you can persuade us all to install and use Lucida Sans Unicode (or another IPA Unicode) as our primary browser font.

In a couple of places at the above links, you may find some interesting comments on a few symbols "specialized" to African (and some other) languages. Lots of links and references to pursue as well.

And should you figure out how to use it, don't expect me to be able to read your notes. It has been 40 years since I knew a tiny smattering about the system. A difficulty with using simpler systems is that most such - i.e. the proprietary systems used by most dictionaries - really are not adequate for distinguishing between similar but not quite same sounds, especially in an "international community" like Mudcat.

John

Subject: RE: Origins: A-1-a-TWO(?)-a 1 2 3 4 Count-in mystery
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:19 AM

JohnInKansas,

Thanks, I appreciate your response.

It's too late for me to test those waters tonight. But I'll try some other time to see if I can understand some of the information in those links.

Best wishes,

Azizi