BS: shooting at Texas army base

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM

"Forget religion ..."

          How can you do that when it causes so many problems?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: heric
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 04:18 PM

>>Finally, as he specialized in treating those with PTSD, one might assume he is not a super-human and may have just been so horrified at what he heard, every day at work, and tried to help others through such horrors, that he snapped.<<

That's what I was going to say, kat. There may be a causal relationship between what he heard in privileged conversations day after day, from emotionally traumatized people, and with ethnic implications presumably arising with great frequency.

It brings to mind Gore Vidal's book Hollywood, (partially) about the power of propaganda to demonize almost instantaneously, the Germans, even to some extent by first and second generation (presumably confused and conflicted) German-Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: skarpi
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM

this man is a muslim ? not good for them is it ? I mean
muslim in USA .

sad thing what happen there .

kv Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: mg
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:58 PM

There are lots of jobs in the military branches that are filled by people who are not soldiers. This man was apparently one of them. -------

What? Unless we are specifically talking about civilian jobs, a soldier is a soldier, regardless of her MOS or classification or job duties. Of course a psychiatrist is a soldier if he or she is in the military, as is a dentist, cook or whatever. mg

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:00 PM

One thing about it is a relief.

If he had done this while Bush and Cheney were in the White House, they'd be massing troops along the Iranian border by tomorrow morning. What a perfect excuse!

It's a very sad thing to happen, but I reckon it owes more to mental stress than religious fervour.

Does anyone really think that a Muslim attached the US forces HASN'T been checked up, down, and sideways?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 07:47 PM

While this horrific act is beyond comprehension it is a wonder that something similar hasn't happened until yesterday...

The 2 Bush wars are ill-thought out and put service people in harms way on a daily basis... That is alot of stress on our military... More than what our militaries have had to deal with in previous wars... Then throw in stop-loss and you have one heck of alot of folks stressed to the max... Now throw in ther front line clinicans (couselors, psycologists, psychiatrist, etc) who are having to deal with one heck of a load of very messed up people and things are getting internalized... Like I said, it's a wonder that it took this long... There are other folks out there like this guy who are walking mentally wounded who are trying to hang in there while having to heap more and more stuff into their tummies...

This, of course, is no excuse but this shotting should be taken as a warning that fighting these two wars of choice is taking a vast toll on our military...

I say, get the heck out... And don't start anymore of these stupid wars of choice...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:48 PM

What appalls me is that the Army is still so full of (your favorite derogatory word here) that members like Major Malik Nadal Hasan just get passed along as ticking time bombs. So what idiot decided the solution was to send him to Afghanistan?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:06 PM

Unlikely that other soldiers' post traumatic stress affected him. Army psychiatrists mainly give out medication and usually do very little listening to soldiers talk about traumas of war because soldiers don't easily open up in these short interviews with army psychiatrists unless they are angling for disability or discharge.

Soldiers who see one or more tours are extremely tough individuals and rarely reveal the impact of war horrors to anyone. It takes most soldiers a long time to open up about war horrors and most do it in groups with other soldiers whom they trust more than shrinks if they do it at all.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: bankley
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 06:32 AM

I wonder if his firearms had Muslim names,
like Colt, Browning, Smith&Wesson, Winchester, Iver&Johnson etc...

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 08:08 AM

No, they probably had Isreali names like Uzi, Galil, Tavor,
Negev, and Jericho.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 11:21 AM

Here's the problem. Islam creates a philosophical or religious opening for violence as does any other religion. The rationale becomes heightened when someone who Interprets this religion in this manner goes over the edge.

There is a larger picture in that today in the US, we enable this type of behavior by supporting a war machine that dehumanizes people. Connect the dots.

As long as killing and wars go on, we will continue to have these problems.

The solution is to stop glorifying war and using religion to justify the taking of lives.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:21 PM

I (the wizard of Obvious) have a theory...


As for he mental health issues in the military, it is the same for us all.

It is a matter of diet. Not physical food but a food for thought and emotions.

The food for destructive thought is as sequential as denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptence when dealing with death.
My theory is S+F2xH=GS   Suspicion plus repeated fear times hate equals great suffering

All people are curious. The dark side of curiosity is suspicion.
When suspicion is fed enough lies, slandor and negative speculation it ferments into FEAR. Fear can be encouraged to grow with constant repetition until it bears a fruit called HATE. Eat enough hate and you have the recipe for great suffering.

Virtually anyone can fall down the slippery slpe of the dark side of fear. When this ultimately ends with running amok and becomeing the latest gunman to go beserk and indiscriminatly murdering people, we all to often lay the blame on a drug induced state, mental illness or a violent religious fervor.

S+FxH=GS   Suspicion plus fear times hate equals great suffering

It is true for everyone you know. It matters not if the person is a psychiatrist or a religious figure or a law enforcement officer or even a young innocent child.

By the time a person has reached the fear stage the mental health of the person is already in jeopardy. When it reaches the hate stage the prognosis is poor.

The best time to defuse this cycle of mental destruction is between suspicion and fear.

Sadly people of dubious power reinforce suspicion and fear for their own benefit because it has always proven to be an effective way to modify a person's behavior.







On another note...Why We Fight is a documentary about the ceaseless wars that the US has been fighting since WWII either by proxy or by direct deployment of troops. On the positve side lots of money is made by war profiteers and weapon companies. On the dark side it divides and destroys the psyche of the nation as well as the individual.

Fighting other people's civil wars or defending our interest in oil or other commodities is the worst reason for war ever devised in our national policy making institutions. Thank the Rand Corporation and the rest of the Military Industrial Congressional Complex.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:31 PM

Donuel has made some powerful points about the reality of out basic vulnerabilities ...we simply can't easily predict who will 'break' under various stresses.

What will be interesting is seeing which band-aids they will choose to apply to the situation....

It reminds me of the Health Care debate... no one is willing to apply, vote for, fund...or even discuss... ALL of the very basic issues, causes and possible cures. Every theoretical approach offends someone, costs too much, or just is beyond practical application.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:16 PM

Aside from the obvious that war IS INSANE... I imagine some of his biggest stressors were: being a minority in the army and putting up with what minority officers have to contend with...and being raised muslim and trying to fit into American culture. He couldnt' find a wife and had no family left. Forty years old and probably been in trouble for sexual harrassment at some point because the muslim upbringing doesn't prepare its men for American culture but for muslim culture. Muslim men are ill equipped to fit into American society even if they are American born. Add being muslim and having to work for americans bent on destroying his religious compatriots all over the world and the cognitive dissonance was too much for him.   

I'm losing faith in the president I voted for because he isn't stopping THE INSANITY.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM

"...he isn't stopping THE INSANITY."

*sigh*...INSANITY will always be with us. I take it you mean he is not trying to withdraw us (the US) from participation. I am not sure how we just 'quit'. Does the phrase "tiger by the tail" ring any bells?
I suspect that Obama knows very well from the lessons of Viet Nam and Iraq and the Russians experience in Afghanistan that this is not a conventional 'war' like countries used to fight, where one could usually identify the enemy and see troop movements...etc. We are well equipped to fight one of those. But fighting guerrilla tactics against 'part' of a populace when one can't even easily identify the 'enemy' if they walk in front of you, and when those who are NOT shooting at you don't really like you, is never easy.
Obama knows this...and 'the enemy' knows he knows this, and THEY are willing to suffer civilian casualties in order to place blame for them ON us. Yet, if we do withdraw, the Taliban/Al Quaida combination will tear what peaceful areas there are apart, and we will have TWO out-of-control countries sheltering terrorists in the area. Then we will be totally in a position of "wait till someone tries something, then bomb the hell out of whoever we suspect!". Who knows....that may be better than just throwing $$$$ and lives at them like a gigantic game of "whack-a-mole".

If Obama does withdraw, something we don't like will happen, and he will be blamed for that, just as he is being criticized now for NOT withdrawing. It's hard to decide, huh? Cheaper to withdraw maybe...and will save 'some' lives, though I suspect not IN Afghanistan!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:01 PM

...and remember, a US administration got us into both Iraq and Afghanistan, even if those decisions are now widely discredited and awkward. 'We' are responsible, even with a new administration working.

Did you hear Obama say (paraphrased) "If you leave us a big mess to mop up, don't be criticizing how we hold the mop!"

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:22 PM

Truthfully Bill, I don't really care how he holds the mop as long as he starts mopping like hell. (;<))

Right now we seem to be just mixing the water and possibly considering another layer of dirt before we start the clean up..............


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:36 PM

Afghanistan is particularly tough, because Bush got all those other countries in there with the US. If the US leaves, it's abandoning its allies, and the US started the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:15 PM

All else aside, can anyone explain how anyone with two handguns can manage to shoot 40-odd people?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:39 PM

sure, Dick.... he stands where there is a line of people who are NOT armed, and fires rapidly, changing clips maybe once. If he picks the right place to position himself, he could shoot anyone trying to rush him for a minute or so. Many people who are being shot at try to get away first, not charge AT a guy with a gun. As it is, he only had about 2-3 minutes.
Maybe they will explain more how he actually did it soon.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:45 PM

Well... f*** me! Just picked this off the wire at Yahoo...

Obama devoted his weekly radio address to the Fort Hood shootings, which he called "a crime against our nation."

"It is an act of violence that would have been heartbreaking had it occurred anyplace in America. It is a crime that would have horrified us had its victims been Americans of any background. But it's all the more heartbreaking and all the more despicable because of the place where it occurred and the patriots who were its victims," Obama said.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:48 PM

"Muslim men are ill equipped to fit into American society even if they are American born."

I know two Muslim men- one of them quite well - and I don't see that at all. Both of them are gregarious people who love fun and other people. One of them has been married twice, both times to native-born American women; the other is single but sends money home (I'm not sure where "home" is.)

Come to think of it he reminds me quite a bit of Chinese men I have known in Oregon. As well as Filipino men- in Juneau a great many Filipinos send money home.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 04:51 PM

Dick...from a news site: "The gunman, with two guns including a semi-automatic weapon, opened fire apparently without warning ...." we're lucky it was only 40.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:12 PM

Dick : Two Glock 19's could easily fire 76 rounds in the time stated in the hands of an ameteur.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:15 PM

oops... 64 rounds. Saturday night.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:23 PM

Saturday Night specially early!

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:25 PM

The gunman shouted "Allah Akbar" before opening fire, and had in the past praised suicide bombers.

The liberal media are still at a loss as to what his motives were...??

If only we had another Sherlock Holmes.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:43 PM

Well yeah guestguest, he was fucked up in the head, but. . . . I think we're trying to perceive, from a distance, the essence of his fuckedupedness.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

Are they saying that's what he had, two Glocks?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: gnu
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM

Nope. I wasn't there.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:57 PM

very recent article quoting one of those who responded

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: pdq
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM

At least one source said that the Fort Hood perp used the FN 5.7, a 5.7 mm handgun made by Herstal in Belgium.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 07:35 PM

If someone was shooting at me I'm not too sure I'd have any clear notion of anything they might be shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:06 PM

I'm with you McGrath. I doubt I'd hear anything, as I'd be heading in the opposite direction at great speed.

I remember the story of two infantrymen sent out into No-Man's Land on a WW1 recce mission. One of them snagged a tripwire, and the Germans opened fire with rifles.

When they'd recovered their breath, back in their own trench, Charlie said to Mick "Did you hear that shot crack past our ears?"

"Yes" said Mick, "Twice! Once when it passed us, and again when I passed IT."

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:08 PM

Well, it is looking more and more as if there is more than a psychological breakdown at work in the case of the Fort Hood shooting. While not definitely proved to be a cause, the possibility of a religious cum terrorist attack seems more likely.

"Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda"

"Army Major in Fort Hood Massacre Used 'Electronic Means' to Connect with Terrorists"

/abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:17 PM

**personal history and recent frustration plus superimposed religious overlay plus job stress**

*shrug* still no way to predict who will do it next.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:25 PM

Re the remark about Muslim men, how about women?
Two Muslim women are included in an article about local young 'movers and shakers' in "Avenue," a slick magazine devoted to Calgary.

One is a crack lawyer, Counsel, Alberta Utilities Commission. She also is a board member of the Ismaili Regional Conciliation and Arbitration Board for the Praries, and a mentor for immigrants at the University of Calgary and elsewhere.

The other, an immigrant from Yemen, is director and co-founder of Foundry Creative, a successful graphics company that designs company annual reports, packaging, and outlines strategies for successful marketing. She also is active in charitable work such as housing for people with learning disabilities, a YWCA house for women in crisis, and is active with Immigrant Services Calgary.

At the risk of being called sexist, I will add thet both women are beauties.

Calgary has a large and varied Muslim population, active in all fields from professional to blue-collar. The city is over 1/5 immigrant and essentially untouched by racial or religious problems.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: mg
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM

I don't get why there was not a faster military response..mp or something...it was a civilian policewoman who brought him down I think..you have to be prepared for this kind of thing..certainly from outsiders...on a post...mg

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:56 PM

In 1991, a man killed 23 and wounded 20 at a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen before killing himself. Don't know what weapon(s) he had.

The weapon(s) used by Maj. Hasan have not been named by investigators. The list of wounded now 42, but some may not have been shot.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/08/texas.lubys.shooting.survivor/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: chazkratz
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:12 PM

Donuel was the first in this thread to use the word "amok"--a Filipino word used to describe
a Moro (Filipino Muslim) who, angered and shamed by his dealings with Christian Filipinos , shaves his head and eyebrows, dresses in white, perhaps gets blessed by an imam, grabs a weapon--usually a machete--and kills as many Christians as he can before being killed himself, to spend eternity in heaven served by the Christians he has killed. I cannot comment on the validity of this belief, having met no Muslim Filipinos during my time there in the Peace Corps and never having heard of an actual example of the behavior (except for a case when two Christian Filipino farmers, brothers who had boarded a train and were confronted by a conductor who asked for their tickets and told them they would be put off the train when they were unable to produce them, used their machetes to hack up the conductor and as many of the other occupants of the train car as they could before being killed themselves. I also have no idea if the practice, if it really exists/existed in the Philippines, exists in any other areas where Muslims and non-Muslims live in close proximity, or if there is anything in general Islamic culture which might explain it. But Hasan's action does sound eerily like "running amok" in that sense, complete with the
anger and shame causing treatment Dr. Hasan received at the hands of the Army.

Charles

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:07 PM

So at this point Maj. Hasan is communicating with medical staff.

He is clearly identified as the one who shot and killed 13 soldiers and civilians, and wounded another 40 or so.

He had a record of objecting vehemently to our role in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He purchased at least one of his weapons at a local gun shop a month or so ago.

Some of his conversations with his former Iman from the DC area, who fled the States after 9/11 and relocated to Yemen where he has been preaching in support of Jihad, had been monitored by security agencies.

One wonders if there are so many such cases that no one can focus on the one who will explode next. It's hard to believe in retrospect that the Major was not under closer surveillance. No doubt anyone who knew anything about him is trying desperately to cover his or her ass.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:23 PM

amok-amuck-amock is a Malay word, not Filipino.

The word was applied by U. S. soldiers to Muslim fighters on Mindanao when the U. S. moved into the Philipines and "liberated" the islands from the Spanish.
The fight for self-rule by some of the minority Muslims (5-10%)goes on to this day, they cannot stand the dominance of the Catholic majority.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:13 PM

"I don't get why there was not a faster military response...."

There were TWO armed security folks there within 3 minutes or so. They are not stationed every 50 feet. One interview stressed that NO ONE except approved security people are supposed to have loaded weapons...even on a military base. You simply cannot guard against random craziness.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 10:47 PM

News reports are beginning to fault the military for being overly "politically correct." The case is being made that officials didn't want to sanction the guy because he was isolated due to his religious beliefs.
            Religion, however, is not something you're born with, like skin color or ethnicity. It's something you choose, like joining the KKK or becoming a poet.
            They didn't move against the shooter because they were unable to react rationally as a result of their own confining belief systems. As a result, 13 people are dead.
            Religion, is seems to me, is the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 09:46 AM

""Religion, however, is not something you're born with, like skin color or ethnicity. It's something you choose, like joining the KKK or becoming a poet.""

That's a seriously flawed statement Rig.

Religion is very often not an informed, adult, choice.

Frequently it is more like a brainwashing, in the sense that it is indoctrinated into the young before they develop the critical faculties that enable them to question inconsistencies.

You might state that with advancing years, and education, they should make the choice to turn away from it, but others could equally apply that rule-of-thumb response to Christianity, or Atheism, with equal justification.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:08 PM

Well...all this and other matters certainly bring up the issue of profiling again..(as if it ever goes away!)

We know that most Muslims would not do this...but we know that many of those who are willing to do such things these days...are Muslims.

We are learning that Hasan was becoming involved in religious & cultural concerns about Muslim issues, and was more & more heading towards extreme positions.
In other words, **Hasan** was essentially profiling non-Muslims...and, it seems, with justification.

story

"The Washington Post reported Tuesday that Hasan warned his medical colleagues a year and a half ago that to "decrease adverse events" the U.S. military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors instead of fighting in wars against other Muslims. Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, made the recommendation in a culminating presentation to senior Army doctors at Walter Reed Medical Center, where he spent six years as an intern, resident and fellow before being transferred to Fort Hood.

"It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims," Hasan said in the presentation, a copy of which was obtained by the Post.

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:17 PM

Bill-

"It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims."

That was when Major Hasan was still trying to reason things out. Sometime later he made the major jump to strike out directly against his fellow soldiers.

The memorial service is going on today at Fort Hood. May it help some of the survivors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM

Bill D

What do yo mean by "with justification?"

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 03:36 PM

"the U.S. military should allow Muslim soldiers to be released as conscientious objectors instead of fighting in wars against other Muslims

That makes sense. If the USA was engaged in a war agauinbst Israel, does anyone doubt that Jewish soldiers would be allowed to be be released?

Subject: RE: BS: shooting at Texas army base
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 04:00 PM

Then I suppose the American Germans, Italians, and Japanese should not have been allowed voluntarily, or drafted, to fight Germans, Italians and Japanese during WW2. Right?

Makes no sense to me. Why allow Muslims to live in the U.S. and enjoy the freedoms they enjoy without being willing to fight for those freedoms?

DougR