Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse

Subject: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Roberto
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:04 PM

Please, help me to get the meaning of this verse:

Then let your schemes alone
Adore the rising sun
And leave a man undone to his fate

The key-word I'd like not to misunderstand is "undone". Thanks. R

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Ythanside
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

Sounds as if it could translate as 'rendered vulnerable'.

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Roberto
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 02:55 PM

I'd like to get it as "leave a man without doing him any arm, leave him to his fate (although he's your enemy)"...

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: lady penelope
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:23 PM

No, it doesn't give any indication of how the subject is left to his fate.

And leave a man undone to his fate

To be 'undone' is to fall from a respected position or status. This can either be something done by the subject or to the subject.

The line is not very specific. A possible meaning could be - once we have finished our treatment of the subject, leave him to what ever else may happen to him.

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:44 PM

Are we talking possible mondegreens here, or are these words straight from the author in printed lyrics?

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: GUEST,Chris Brownbridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:46 PM

Burns wrote the words, so it should be fairly easy to check.

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 03:47 PM

Hmmm - when I first learned this song in the mid 60s (probably from Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor on the 'Tonight' programme) I always sang it as 'abhor the rising son', taking 'rising son' to be a pun on 'rising sun' because Prince Charlie was the son of the old pretender, and followed that line with 'leave a man that's done to his fate.' It would seem that I had simply misheard it but it still makes sense to me, given the sentiments expressed in the song.

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:04 PM

Then leave your schemes alone
In the state, in the state
Then leave your schemes alone in the state
Then leave your schemes alone,
Adore the rising sun
And leave a man alone
To his fate.
dick miles

Subject: Lyr Add: YE JACOBITES BY NAME
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:07 PM

another version.
    Ye Jacobites by Name

    Ye Jacobites by name, now give an ear, give an ear,
    Ye Jacobites by name, give an ear;
    Ye Jacobites by name,
    Your fautes I will proclaim,
    Your docrines I maun blame - you shall hear!

    What is Right, and what is Wrang, by the law, by the law?
    What is Right, and what is Wrang, by the law,
    What is Right, and what is Wrang,
    A short sword and a lang,
    A weak arm and a strang, for to draw!

    What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar?
    What makes heroic strife, famed afar?
    What makes heroic strife?
    To whet th' assassin's knife,
    Or hunt a Parent's life, wi' bluidy war!

    Then let your schemes alone, in the State, in the State!
    Then let your schemes alone, in the State!
    Then let your schemes alone,
    Adore the rising sun,
    And leave a man undone, to his fate.

    Meaning of unusual words:
    fautes=falts
    maun=must
    wrang=wrong
    lang=long
    strang=strong
    bluidy=bloody
    undone=destroyed

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Bee
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:25 PM

Undone also can mean, in the 'rendered vulnerable' sense, revealed to one's enemies, or revealed to one's followers as shameful or evil, or revealed in such a way as to be unable to defend oneself. Can also mean one has done this to oneself through foolishness or anger.

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:33 PM

I suspect the placement of the comma is important here. To leave someone undone, is to leave him without help or support. To leave him to his fate is to let 'nature' take its course. So basically, you're leaving this poor guy, helpless, friendless and unsupported, to be swept along by circumstance.

Leaving the comma out changes the context and renders the final line senseless.

LTS

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:17 PM

James C. Dick thought that it was 'a pithy ironical satire couched in equivocal terms which may be read by either Whig or Tory.' Burns was under pressure then to either conform to the polical climate of his day or go under. It's a bit like Dylan's Blowing in the Wind, in as much as it can mean all things to all people although Burns was making a brave statement for survival.

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Joe_F
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 09:04 PM

Surely, in context, the "man undone" is James II? At any rate, I always took the lines to mean "He's lost: can't you see that? So bloody well stop trying to rehabilitate him; let him be lost in peace."

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I think that no one is considering the importance of "The state" in the lyric line.

To me that sounds like "He ?" should abandon any hope of affecting the government via war, armed attack or subterfuge.

Don

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 03:31 AM

"Give up plotting against the (Hanoverian) State. Accept that the Stuarts have been defeated, and lettting nature takes its course with them, accommodate yourself to political realities."

Simple enough, and realistic advice, if not principled. It seems that the Scottish aristocracy took it to heart, and used the unswerving loyalty of their clan followers to ease their relocation to Canada or the grave, to be replaced by new, easy-to-manage, profitable sheep.

Subject: RE: Ye Jacobites By Name -Meaning of a verse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:38 PM

I think a key to understanding this song is to appreciate that Burns was rewriting a previously existing song of the same name, also in the DT.

Read the two together and you'll see that Burns has significantly changed the song, and turned it from a sectarian-Hanoverian rant to something much more ambiguous. Essentially he seems to be saying saying that it's mad for Scots to fight among themselves. Yes, the Jacobite cause is done for - but there's no sense that he has any affection for the winners. And the lines "Adore the rising sun
And leave a man undone (or alone) To his fate" seem to carry a payload of scornful irony.