Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen?? (John's Sail)

Subject: Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen??
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 May 09 - 03:10 PM

Looking through the EFDSS Take Six last night I put in Overton which brought me to a song in the Anne Gilchrist collection called When John's Sail Was New (AGG/8/73). Talking to various knowledgeable folkie coves today the opinion seems to be Annie misheard her source. A Google search for John's Sail proves fruitless...

Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen??
From: Jeri
Date: 26 May 09 - 03:14 PM

You mean other than 'When Jones's Ale Was New'?

Subject: RE: Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 May 09 - 03:15 PM

Well, I think there's an obvious choice for what it might be. Can you tell us how to access it?

-Joe-

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The Traditional Ballad Index lists "When John's Sail Was New" as an alternate title:

When Jones's Ale Was New

DESCRIPTION: Stories from Jones's Bar. Various drinkers come in, each with his tale or his unruly behavior or his demand. Most are hard workers whose burdens are relieved by the ale.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1594 (stationer's register)
KEYWORDS: drink nonballad landlord ritual
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MA) Britain(England(All),Scotland) Australia
REFERENCES (9 citations):
Doerflinger, pp. 168-169, "When Johnson's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Ford-Vagabond, pp. 273-277, "When John's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Copper-SoBreeze, pp. 284-285, "Four Jolly Fellows" (1 text, 1 tune)
Kennedy 287, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (1 text, 1 tune)
Combs/Wilgus 166, pp. 132-133, "The Jovial Tinker (Joan's Ale is Good)" (1 text -- a heavily modified version with a floating first verse and a final verse that may imply a Civil War setting)
Paterson/Fahey/Seal, pp. 245-248, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (1 text plus an excerpt from a British broadside)
Silber-FSWB, p. 231, "Johnson's Ale" (1 text)
BBI, ZN2502, "There was a jovial Tinker"
DT, JONESALE JONESAL2 JONESAL3
Roud #139
RECORDINGS:
Bob & Ron Copper, "The Jovial Tradesman" (on LomaxCD1700); "The Jovial Tradesman" (on FSB3)
Fred Jordan, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (on Voice13)
John M. (Sailor Dad) Hunt, "When Jones's Ale Was New" (AFS, 1941; on LC27)
BROADSIDES:
Bodleian, Douce Ballads 1(105b), "Joan's Ale is New"["Jones" in the text], T. Vere (London), 1644-1680; also Douce Ballads 1(99b), "Joan's Ale is New"["Jones" in the text]; Harding B 28(139), "Joan's Ale"["Joan's" in the text]; Harding B 11(652), "When John's Ale Was New"; Harding B 16(336b), "Joan's Ale Was New"["Joan's" in the text]; 2806 c.18(169), "Joan's Ale is New"["Joan's" in the text]
Murray, Mu23-y2:014, "When John's Ale was New," Poet's Box (Glasgow), 19C
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Young Man Who Travelled Up and Down"
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Jone's ale is newe
When John's Sail Was New
Notes: The song was sung by the "jolly boys" (pace-eggers) in Overton, Lancs, as part of their Easter house-to-house ritual. - PJS
File: Doe168

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Subject: RE: Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen?? (John's Sail)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 May 09 - 04:05 PM

Thanks for that, Joe. Go to the Search Catalogue page of the Take Six site and do a search for Overton.

http://library.efdss.org/archives/cgi-bin/search.cgi

Is this the only source for the John's Sail variation I wonder? Certainly my learned Lancastrian traddies were very doubtful; one of whom reported a When Jones, His Ale, Was New.

I was actually looking for The Pace-egging Song Beg Your Leave, collected (I believe) by Anne Gilchrist in Overton, presumably by the same "jolly boys", but having found it (AGG/8/52) it doesn't give a source or a location.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen?? (John's Sail)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 09 - 04:28 PM

The mondegreen wasn't Annie Gilchrist's. The singer probably insisted this was what they had heard. Annie was well aware of many versions of the song. The mondegreen could have passed through several generations before she recorded it. It was published in Journal of the Folk Song Society No 9 (1906) The name 'John' for 'Joan' and vice versa is common in Scots as they pronounce John as Joan, as Annie quite rightly points out. So in Ford's Vagabond Songs we get 'When John's Ale was new'. Some American versions even have 'Johnson's Ale'.

BTW 'Beg Your Leave' is on page 231 of the same volume and it is from the same Overton set of Jolly Boys noted down at the same time.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen?? (John's Sail)
From: curmudgeon
Date: 26 May 09 - 04:32 PM

The version that Lloyd sang was also "Johnson's Ale."

Subject: RE: Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen?? (John's Sail)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 May 09 - 04:37 PM

Thanks for that, Steve.

To what extent might Mondegreen's be part of the Folk Process I wonder? There's a cracking version of Child #2 in the Max Hunter archive which we're calling Yondos Town...

http://maxhunter.missouristate.edu/0060/index.html

Subject: RE: Origins: A Gilchrist Mondegreen?? (John's Sail)
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 08:52 AM

Regarding the mis-hearing of this version, Flanders recorded "When John's Sail was new"

3865 WHILE JOHN'S SAIL WAS NEW
Flebbe Beulah Dix Mrs Pacific Pal
460320 s (T06B20)
Track 20 : While John's Sail Was New - voice performance by Beulah Dix Flebbe at Pacific Pal (Ca.). Dated 03-20-1946. 39:10

The listener will hear that she is clear in her pronounciation of "John's Sail"

Unfortunately, Flanders does not record anything about her singes except name, date and location