UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 05:19 AM

Apologies to Jim Carroll for what appears to be a misunderstanding. When I wrote that Folk ~ are people ~ Full Stop I was using the word "folk" in it's broadest and archaic meaning given in the dictionary as people in general. I hope that clears that up.

Today "People in general" do not write poems, do not write songs, do not play musical instruments, do not dedicate years of their lives to some clearly defined art form because the vast majority of "People in general" are too busy just getting on with life. Now back in the time long before jazz and before it's offshoot - skiffle, "people in general" worked the land and sailed the seas and the work they did was manual and labour intensive. Part of them "just getting on with life" involved collective effort and to give that work rhythm and co-ordination they sang or chanted to improve the efficiency of what they were doing and to relieve the boredom of it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 06:00 AM

Guest
No apology needed
Here we are discussing a specific body of songs which were attributed to a specific section of the population - that description has remained valid right up to the present day and will continue to be so until someone replaces it with another to describe a unique culture, which also covers music, dance, tales, customs and lore.... the disciplines are inseparable
I agree the people no longer create, but I don't accept that it is because they are too busy -
People still need diversion - they have gone elsewhere for it - now they have become customers rather than participant swhich, to a degree, minimises their role in society
Theit voice has been removed from the equation so they no longer have a platform for self expression
I've told this several times before, but it's worth repeating
Some time ago I discovered a whole body of songs among those we recorded here in Clare which could only have been made locally and during the lifetimes of the singer
They covered every subject under the sun concerning life in the early part of the 20th century - shipwrecks, land disputes, political warfare, drownings, arranged marriages..... right through to a local railway and fashion - all anonymous and all locally made
An old singer (still with us and now aged 98) summed them up perfectly when he said, "In those days, if a man farted in church someone made a song about it".
We've since found that practice was common throughout Ireland
You want to hear examples of these songs, look up 'The Quilty Burning', or 'The Bobbed Hair', or 'The Rineen Ambush' or 'The West Clare Railway' , or 'The Leon'..... and several more
CARROLL/MACKENZIE COLLECTION
People need to express themselves rather than pay someone to do it for them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 08:44 AM

Jim, what you appear unwilling to accept is that there is a large body of fairly recently composed songs which don't always follow traditional forms but which are not "pop". They were widely accepted as falling within the broader understanding of "folk" and have been a normal part of the folk club repertoire for several decades, without being seen as a threat to traditional music. If I understand you correctly, you appear to regard most of these songs as falling into the category of "pop" rather than folk.

Your pessimistic view of the future of folk music seems to be at least in part affected by a somewhat narrow view of what you consider to be "near-folk",ie not traditional but close enough to be acceptable. Even at the height of the folk club boom, this would have excluded the vast majority of clubs, most of which had a broader policy which would allow most contemporary folk whilst still not (as a rule) including pop.

This thread and others like it can never reach a conclusion because we are permanently at cross-purposes. Most of us have a wider tolerance of what can be expected in a folk club (even though it may not be to our own taste). You are of course entitled to your own views but most other contributors see a wider folk scene and one which is in far better health than you would have us believe, albeit one which is changing to meet new times and a new generation of enthusiasts.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 09:13 AM

"recently composed songs which don't always follow traditional forms but which are not "pop"
Happy to accept that fully Howard but how can they be "widely accepted" by a dwindling 'folk scene' that only has a claimed 180 clubs - who are the 'widely'
That some folkies do accept them as such doesn't mean a damned thing in the grand order of things   
Acceptability to whom ?
The future of folk music lies in it being recognised as such in all its aspects - once that has been established you can begin to rebuild what was once a very healthy movement based on the real thing
I'm at a bit of a loss here - can you specify what songs you mean and why they resemble folk
I have no problem with songs made using folk structures and having the same objective - storytelling, communication of experiences and emotions using narratively structured words -
For research purposes, they will never be folk songs until they go through a process, but that's beside the point
In the main, newly composed songs using such techniques have always been accepted
People began turning away in their thousands when they attended clubs which were dominated by songs that bore no resemblance to those they thought they would hear - the homogeneity had disappeared their choice of what they wished to listen to had been removed, the magazines, shops and labels disappeared
That continues to be the case
You can hardly claim that the shift has been a success and our chance of passing on what gave some of us a lifetime to pleasure and stimulation to the next generation was severely damaged
Try applying this attitude to any other musical form - well it "sounds a bit like" jazz, classical music, blues, pop..... and see how ridiculous it sounds
What's so different about folk song ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:35 AM

I suggest that the thread be returned to the title above

I do follow what Jim is ascertaining, however people will continue to make music and arrange both old and new songs which may or may not continue to stand the test of time

My view is that the English language will continue to recognise the terms Traditional folk songs and Contemporary Folk songs and some of us will understand what is meant even if the terms are not correct to others

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

Hard to discuss the 50s boom without including what made it eexplode in the fist place
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:24 PM

Remind us then, who exactly are 'the folk' and when was the term first applied to their artefacts, song in particular? (Repeat of post 25th Feb, 3.08 p.m.)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 02:49 PM

I had another thought. Digging up a bush in the garden today must have jolted my brain!

Folk clubs were not a natural venue for traditional folk song. Those songs were sung in the fields and barns and on the ships. They were sung in pubs and peoples houses and at fairs. Before the 1950s the concept of a folk club did not exist. When they formed they gave the people the chance to experience the music without the hard work that it should be associated with. As an entity they are less than 70 years old. Hardly a traditional!

Anything wrong with that train of thought?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM

No, Dave. That's why we call it a revival. We were reviving the music using a completely new format. The whole thing was a false construct. It was not continuing anything that had gone before other than the music itself and that was taken out of context. Even the traditional singers who were occasionally brought in were performing in an alien environment to an almost entirely new audience. But those realists among us were happy with this new music and it helped knowing it was collectively part of our heritage; and we embraced the whole scene, song, music, dance, drama. Those of us who stuck with it for the last 50 years or so were, and still are, inspired by it.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:08 PM

Thanks Steve.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 04:23 PM

>>>>Hardly a traditional!<<<<

When scholars talk about a tradition' and use the word 'traditional' not a single one has put actual time parameters on this, and that is perhaps how it should be. Just as we look at these music genres using Venn diagrams we have no collective concept of a timeline in which something moves from not being traditional to being traditional. To give an example, we talk about passing on from one generation to another which in the terms of families is about a 25-year period on average, but in terms of children in the playground a generation is just one year group passing on to lower age groups and I suppose the same applies to children in the street but not as rigidly applied.

Whilst the usual processes of oral tradition have been drastically affected by technology over the centuries, there are new similar processes at work with technology playing an increasingly great part. You could say an excellent example is Mudcat itself.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Feb 19 - 07:18 PM

Jim, you ask for an example of the sort of music I am talking about.

As it happens, I read your reply while I was waiting for a tram, and in the background a busker was singing "Don't think twice, it's alright". Had I asked other people at the tram stop, I believe most of them would have described that as a folk song. I also think they would have disagreed that it was a pop song.

That song, and others like it, was widely sung in folk clubs from the 1960s onwards, alongside traditional songs. They were part of "folk" in the broader sense which all but a few clubs embraced. If you are suggesting that songs like this caused people to turn away from folk clubs in their thousands, all I can say is that it took them several decades to do so. The clubs continued to thrive until the late 80s/early 90s. The reason for their decline has been discussed elsewhere. One reason may have been that the folk club generation found that work and family commitments got in the way. Punk may have offered the younger generation the opportunities for self-expression which the folk clubs had previously.

I haven't disputed that the folk clubs are much reduced, although I query the figure of 180 clubs which seems to have come from a Wikipedia article with no evidence to support it. I have already shown that there appear to be at least 50 clubs in the north west alone (and that's only those who belong to the Federation). I find it hard to believe that this region accounts for around 1/3 of all the clubs in the country. Furthermore there are other venues besides folk clubs to hear folk music, including traditional songs. As Steve said, the clubs were an artificial construct - they worked for a time but other artificial constructs are now joining them and perhaps taking their place, such as house concerts. I see large numbers of young people taking up folk music.

You make much of folk clubs being active rather than passive, but the majority of people who went to folk clubs never got up to perform but sat there and listened.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:28 AM

To be clear, I'm not claiming that the folk scene is in as healthy a state as it was in the 60s. Fashions change. For a brief time in the 60s folk music was cool (although this led -mainly by contemporary folk rather than traditional) and the clubs benefited from that. It came to be regarded as a bit odd, listened to be people with beards and sweaters, and probably wearing socks with sandals.

What I am saying is that it's not as bad as you claim, and measuring it by the number of folk clubs (whatever that might be) is to ignore the many other opportunities to hear folk music which now exist.

Can you please give some examples of the "pop" songs which you think are such a threat to traditional song?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:04 AM

" Had I asked other people at the tram stop, "
You didn't so you don't know Howard
If you had and they'd replied it was, would they have been able to define what a folk song was - how can a song made and copyrighted by Dylan belong to the folk ?
If 'folk doesn't mean 'made and belonging to the folk', what does it mean?
Would you pursue any other subject by aking people from busts-stops - from stamp collecting to quantum physics - of course you wouldn't !!
Why should folk song be different that it should be based on mass ignorance ?
As I said earlier, people in general knew far more what folk song was a century ago than they do now.
To study or to run a club you choose to refer to as 'folk' implies a specific type of song, yet you refuse top describe what you are selling - sharp practice in my book
The clubs were'nt 'part of the folk' - this is a new claim - we were borrowing from the folk repertoire
Composer George Butterworth wrote the most exquisite piece of of English orchestral Music, 'Banks of Green Willow', based on the Child Ballad, 'Bonnie Annie', Vaughan Williams did similar with English folk song, 'Lovely Joan' - were they 'part of the folk, or were they borrowing from the genre ?
Your excuses for the scene dying are just that - excuses - we were bon busier aster the clubs died than we were before, yet for decades we filled the clubs
There was at least one long debate just prior the clubs dying and "too busy" never appeared on the horizon - poorly run folk clubs, indifferent performances and not hearing folk songs weer pretty well front runners
I didn't put up the article by the way, somebody who believes the club scene to be in the best of health did as evidence that all was well
I tend to rely on common sense and my own findings rather than arbitrarily pasted opinions
"You make much of folk clubs being active rather than passive,"
Never have - must have been someone else
I said ours (the people's) culture was active rather than passive - they made, sang and swapped their songs - now they receive them passively
What happened at the clubs doesn't come into the equation

"Remind us then, who exactly are 'the folk' "
The term was used to identify the artifacts being gathered from 'THe Common People' as the peasantry/rural working classes were referred to at the time to distinguish them from the educated elite and the formal artists -
Irish writers of the time actually referred to them as 'the Peasantry' as Ireland still had remnents of a Peasant economy
English writer, Robert Bell (1800-1867) actually entitled his collection 'Ancient Poems, Ballads, and Songs of the Peasantry of England'
You shouldn't have to ask this Steve - it's basic stuff
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:22 AM

Some pool player once remarked [in my hearing]when Martin Carthy came on the jukebox singing bonny lass of anglesea , oh its that jazz singer.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM

I was asking you specifically, Jim, for your opinion, and you haven't answered the second part of the question.

You particularly single out Bell. What proportion of the songs in this book are broadside ballads and what proportion would you say are taken from oral tradition?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:05 AM

"Technology"
The spread of literacy led to the fixing of song texts - part of our work with source singers was asking them about songs they learned from print
The few that did said they hardly changed the songs - they were set texts - Tom Lenihan said he didn't trust 'the ballads' because "they never got them right' (you need to remember that people like Tom came from a living, very creative tradition) songs songs they already knew, much preferring to get them fro other singers (particularly the non- literate Travellers)
Literacy had the eventual effect of destroying the oral traditions because it did away with the need for them
Why should electronic communication - an extension of literacy, reverse the process, be considered another tradition ?
This seems like another researchers 'fad' to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:13 AM

Missed a bit
"What proportion of the songs in this book are broadside ballads and what proportion would you say are taken from oral tradition?"
I have no idea which of Bells songs originated from the oral tradition, any more than you have
That Bell got them from print is totally immaterial to where they originated, as you should know
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 04:52 AM

Literacy had the eventual effect of destroying the oral traditions because it did away with the need for them

I think the facts do not wholly support that assertion, unless talking specifically about travellers.
" Irish literacy rates before the Great Famine were high relative to GDP per head. In 1841 nearly half of those aged 5 years and over could at least read, while 53 per cent of those aged over 15 years declared some literacy. Literacy in, say, Italy or the Iberian peninsula was less than half the Irish rate at this time, and in the late 1820s more than half of [male] recruits in half of France’s eighty-six départements were illiterate"
https://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/wp10_22.pdf


iscovery.ucl.ac.uk/10019999/2/__d6_Shared%24_SUPP_Library_User Services_Circulation_Inter-Library Loans_IOE ETHOS_EThOS - Redact

Perhaps the illiterate cohort were the ones that specialised or kept the folk tradition going. It could be an interesting reasearch project. But the origin of the folk revival was (US) public folklorists, cultural preservationists, scholars, musicians, political activists, musical entrepreneurs, and folk musicians together in the effort to protect and preserve, as well as promote and popularize, the genre of folk music.

https://etd.library.vanderbilt.edu/available/etd-03232011-085825/unrestricted/FINALDISSERTATION.pdf

It must also be kept in mind that modern illiteracy rates appear to be rising and the statistics are frighteningly high (I am assuming the UK matches closely the figures from Ireland

https://www.nala.ie/literacy/literacy-in-ireland

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:32 PM

Jim, as you very well know "folk" has acquired two entirely distinct meanings. One is the original meaning, which you cling to. The other is broader, and includes traditional song but also extends to modern songs, It can be briefly, if not entirely accurately, summarised as a "singer with a guitar". It is this broader meaning which is what the general public understands by "folk music", which is why I am confident that most people would have said my busker was performing a folk song. In much the same way I would expect them to be able to recognise a jazz band or a classical string quartet, and distinguish between a fiddler playing folk tunes and a violinist around the corner playning Bach. People may not know much about musical genres, but they have a broad idea what they sound like.

You may feel this is an incorrect meaning (I assume it comes from America, where it may have more of a connection with authentic traditional folk) but that is how it is widely understood. The folk scene as a whole also embraced that meaning, from at least the 1960s. There may be a case to be made that the 60s boom was largely given its impetus by this sort of folk, at a time when performers like Dylan, Donovan, Peter Paul & Mary, Simon & Garfunkel etc were part of mainstream popular music. Individual clubs positioned themselves at different points along the spectrum between wholly trad and wholly contemporary, but in most you could expect to hear a mixture of both.

To pretend that this meaning of "folk" does not exist or should be ignored is to bury your head in the sand. This is the music, centred on traditional songs but including much more, which the folk clubs existed to promote. This is what the public at large, "the folk", understand "folk music" to be.

This is why I said earlier that we are at cross purposes, because when we we talk about "folk" we mean different things.

I don't want to get sidetracked into a discussion about why the clubs declined, that has been discussed at length elsewhere. You have claimed that the current problem is that folk clubs have become places where you can expect to hear pop songs rather than traditional songs. Can you please give some examples of some of these pop songs which you feel present such a threat?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:41 PM

I can , but not sure they are a threat more what i do not want to listen to, peggy sue.. one peformer used to specialise in them he performed them well ,but it is not what i go to folk clubs tohear,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:45 PM

"Jim, as you very well know "folk" has acquired two entirely distinct meanings."
I know nothing of the sort Howard
It has a researched definition and it has become meaningless - a convenient label for a small and rapidly diminishing group of people who have decided to make use ofr it
There is massive researched documentation which confirms the first there is not even agreement on what the latter group mean - no documentation, no research.... just a deliberate misuse of the term
Singer with a guitar could mean any pop singer, equally it could be a Spanish traditional singer
His gets more and more ridiculous
The vast number of people in Britain have no idea what folk music means, nor do tey care
Tpo base anything on that level of ignorance or disinterest is a desperate grasping of straws to justify the unjustifiable
I find it sad that anybody should wish to go to such lengths to, in essence, replace an extremely important art form with.... well - nothing really
Sorry - you really are going to have to do better than that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:45 PM

when i go to a jazz club i expect to hear improvisation ,i cetainly do not want to hear cliff richard performing

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:00 PM

perhaps its part of the folk process that we have extemporised a new variant of the meaning of the word.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:38 PM

Howard, how your head must ache!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:35 PM

I'll be honest. I used to be actively involved in running both a folk club and a festival for nearly 30 years I have not been active for around 10 years and not involved at all for 6. I still go to folk clubs and occasionally sing (reasonably) and play a couple of instruments but to no great extent. When I perform I try to do folk songs. When I am listening I really don't care about the provenance of the song as long as it meets my own measure of a folk song, I like it and it is well performed.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

...Maybe I am too easy to please but it does make for some very enjoyable evenings :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:00 PM

Enjoynent is subjective, i enjoy most things i hear in guest booking clubs , i do not enjoy lets all go on a summer holiday, some enjoy fred jordan singing tiptoe through the turnips. or carthy singing rave on, thers no accountimg for taste

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 02:51 AM

It goes far beyond 'enjoyment' - that my be why we became involved in it in the first place, but once you do, it takes on far mor needs and functions
It would be interesting to discuss why people sing what they do, but while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity, that's out of the question
I can tell you what brought me to folk songs and why I have continued to sing and be interested in them for nearly three quarters of my life - I wonder if anybody else can ?

"Howard, how your head must ache!"
Very profound Stave - and very safe
Always easier to stand on the sidelines and let someone else do the hard work
JIm

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:38 AM

I nearly resisted from making further comment

It is a fact that no one can force anyone to think any differently than they are prepared to ~ that btw includes everyone on this thread ~ Jim Carroll is far too argumentative

If this were a court of law I know where my understanding would be

NO further comments on this off topic sub thread from me

Ray

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

but while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity

That seems a bit of a sweeping statement, Jim. How many people on here have you heard singing and how do you know what songs they sing? The ones I have linked of me singing/playing, for instance, are all folk songs as far as I know. Are you telling me otherwise? In fact, there is one in particular that I learned off my Dad, who learned it off a Gypsy guitarist in pre-war Poland and no-one knows anything about it apart from that!

As far as I am concerned, hedonistic as it sounds, it is only for enjoyment now. I am of an age that if I don't enjoy it, I don't do it. Other than medical procedures and funerals that is.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:15 AM

"That seems a bit of a sweeping statement, Jim. "
When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave
I have heard what you putt up ass folk song and am not particualarly impresses but I am convinced that it bears no relation to folk song
What you linked to did - but that's not what is being argued for here
I actually enjoy what I do and am involved in - hedonistic, I suppose, but none of us are in position to define anything based on what we like - the reverse is the case - we involve ourselves in things that are already defined and we have no right to re-define them because they don't suit us

"far too argumentative"
Isn't that what we're here for - to share ideas and argue for them if we don't agree
You can hardly claim that I have not put up a case for my views - that you don't agree with it is something else
I've never regarded Mudcat as a fanzine site where we come together to slap each other on the back - I came to learn and share
You've put a lot of time and effort into something you now decide if an "off-topic sub thread" - what took you so long to decide that
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:18 AM

Sorry Jim but I think I have lost the thread here.

When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave
I have heard what you putt up ass folk song and am not particualarly impresses but I am convinced that it bears no relation to folk song
What you linked to did

Firstly, who is running an outfit where anything counts as folk song? Not me as I don't run anything at all!

Next, I am confused as to the difference between 'what I put up as folk music' and 'what I linked to'. Why is the former not folk music but the latter is? I just mentioned what I linked to in context of your statement about what people on here sing. I have not 'put' anything else up as folk song. I think you may be referring to something much earlier when all I am asking for is an explanation of why you think "while what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity".

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:19 AM

...and where did I say anything about "far too argumentative"? :-(

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:41 AM

2Firstly, who is running an outfit where anything counts as folk song? "
These are generally addressed comments not aimed at anybody in particular Dave, but some of the arguments you have put up indicate that you are happy with a scene that does just that
You linked to your club yet put up failed (to one degree or another) or wannabe pop singers
Folk is folk - it defines itself and we've been arguing that definition for some time now
What is being put up as suitable for modern clubs bears no relation to folk as it has always been
The argument seems to be whether a small and diminishing group of folkies can make 'folk' mean sonething else (but seem reluctant to say what exactly (playing a guitar on the street seems to have come nearest - Dublin streets are full of wannaby Tommy Steels (I kid you not), doing just that

"and where did I say anything about "far too argumentative"? "
You didn't - Ray did
Keep up :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:57 AM

Ah, OK. Sorry Jim, but I tend to think a post that starts "When you run an outfit where anything counts as folk song, it is a fact Dave", the statement and therefore the post must be addressed to me. Just call me old fashioned :-)

Having got that out of the way, I suppose I need to re-phrase my question. You say "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity". That is the only statement I am referring to. My question is about what makes you think that. I have posted links to me performing in this thread and you confirm that it is folk music. So it does have a distinct identity. I have not noticed any links to other contributors performing and I am not aware of ever having seen them live so I do not know if they sing folk songs or not. How do you know that what they sing does not have a distinct identity?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:04 AM

Jim, it is commonplace for words to have two (or more) meanings, especially where one is in general use while another has a more technical meaning for specialists. Most activities have their specialist language, because they need to be more specific and nuanced than the general language allows. There is nothing wrong with this jargon, indeed it is absolutely necessary, provided it is used in the correct context.

Your use of "folk" is the technical jargon meaning (for brevity I will write this as "!folk" to distinguish it from the general meaning). It is of necessity precise and restricted in its meaning, and it is intended to be used as a definition of what is under discussion.

The general use of "folk" is more a description of a range of sounds and styles which make up a distinct genre. It is not a definition, and it is not precise because it doesn't need to be. It is mainly concerned with how a performance sounds, rather than the origins of the song itself. It is a useful label to help people to know which rack to go to in record shops, or in the words of Terry Pratchett, to know that "folk music is about to be perpetrated, and give them time to get out of the way." This use of the word has been around since at least the 60s, and possibly earlier, and I do not believe for a moment that you do not understand what it means.

This general use includes traditional song, but this because of the styles in which this is usually performed. Not all !folksong is "folk" - for example, "The Foggy, Foggy Dew" is !folk, but when arranged by Benjamin Britten and performed by Peter Pears it is not "folk". On the other hand, Swan Arcade's version of the Kinks' "Lola" is "folk" because of the style of their performance.

These two meanings are not contradictory or confusing when used in context. However folk clubs exist in the the general world, they are places of entertainment rather than academic study, and it is the general meaning of "folk" which applies to them. Only a small number of clubs restricted themselves entirely to traditional !folk, and that was sufficiently unusual to attract comment. Most clubs have always put on a range of music, including traditional !folk but not limited to it. (Many people interested in "folk" are also interested in !folk, but by no means all of them, and an understanding of !folk is not necessary to enjoy "folk" simply as a form of music).

The reason why I feel this discussion is at cross purposes is that you are insisting on using the jargon !folk meaning when in discussing folk clubs we should be using the general meaning. This is simply pedantic, and unhelpful to the discussion. Folk clubs have always presented a wider range of music than strictly traditional, but usually within the broader scope of "folk" in its general sense.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM

Howard, whilst I admire your persistence, and completely agree with you, as do many others, you are arguing with a closed mind. Pointless really!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:23 AM

"Your use of "folk" is the technical jargon meaning "
Far from it Howard - it floated outr boat for several decades until it was edged out by an amorphous something else
It still exists in recordings, published collections, labels like Topic, Springthyme, Folktrax and Folkways, and is heavily documented
Over here, just across the Irish Sea, youngsters are finding for the first time in their many thousands and plating and singing it to a perfection that is breathtaking
There is no "general use" of the term folk - most people don't use it , those few who do are guided by its misuse rather than what it actually is.
THere isn't enough agreement of the misuse to have stabalised it into a different meaning

Look - in the end, the misuse doesn't interest me other than the damage it has had done and continues to do on the real thing
None of you seem to be prepared to discuss that damage, which confirms MacColl's words for me - "Folk song will only die if it falls into the hands of those who don;t like it or don't understand it"
Until some of you are prepared to discuss the real thing, I see little point in these circles we seem to be moving in
The Kinks - Really !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

"Howard, whilst I admire your persistence, and completely agree with you, as do many others, you are arguing with a closed mind. Pointless really!"
Is that why you gave up sever threads ago and stood on the sidelines egging others on Steve ?
New Research writ large
Please take part or butt out - you can't have it both ways
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM

Don't get distracted, Jim. I asked first! :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 06:38 AM

Oh yes I can!!!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:42 AM

"Oh yes I can!!!"
Snipe away then Steve and it will be treated with teh contempt it merits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM

Yes really...

I would say that the songs written by Ray Davies of the Kinks around the height of the 'folk' boom were some of the most perceptive and interesting of any written around that time.
a few- Dead End Street
      Sunny Afternoon
      Village Green Preservation Society

I will not make any comparison with 'folk' or 'contemporary' songs of that era, but I'd recommend that any critic of the Kinks should actually listen to the words, always sung in an identifiably English accent.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:09 AM

I guess I will have to wait for a reply until you return from seeing Hamlet.

I suppose There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Jim, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. :-)

If it is after lunchtime tomorrow I will be hiding in a Dales pub, drinking good beer, singing (non folk) songs and offline :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

When Roy Bailey died recently many newspapers carried obtuaries, in which he was invariably referred to as a "folksinger". They didn't feel the need to explain the term, so presumably they expected their readers to understand it. Of course, since many of his songs were not traditional they were not "folk", according to you, so this is another misuse of the term. However there is clearly no point in trying to persuade you of the meaning of the English language.

We are discussing folk clubs. If "folk" means the traditional music which came from the people, are you saying that folk clubs should present only traditional songs? If that is the case then the rot set in during the 60s boom, because most of the clubs were already including other songs as well.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:49 AM

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Jim, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

If you want education and research you can use the resources of a library or the internet.
If you want entertainment you can go to a folk club or many other venues.
In a folk club the audience may or may not participate to varying extents. They are entertained by a mix of material loosely labelled folk. It may be traditional, it may have been written last week, It may be in a published source, it may not.
It may be subjected to copyright it may not, this may apply to the arrangement, lyrics, or both.
some may be interested in the origin of the material others may not.
It is a broad church therefore it should be no surprise that what is regarded asfolk is equally broad. Trying to pigeonhole a minor spectrum of the material into one box and exclude everything else is not going to fly.
Traditional folk was composed in a traditional way as we have been told ad nauseum. But to quote a well known modern folksong:
Like my house that fell to progress my trade's a memory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SB4gB3DEhA

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:11 AM

No one really has an identity when they sing. You take on (or attempt to take on) the persona of the person making the statement.

Isn't that right?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:18 AM

500!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:57 AM

501... and still no answer to the question. Congrats.