Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 05:43 AM

If Scottish people were black, he would have been black.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:19 AM

Ok, so he was an actor at heart, and his work with Theatre Workshop gives good examples of this.

I have no problem with his weird Scottish accents (note the plural, it's one thing to be brought up by Scottish parents, it's another to try, successfully in the main, to echo the local accent of a traditional song.

The only issue I ever had with him, and had a couple of occasions to discuss this with the great man himself, was his insistence that he can work "within an act" and try to reflect the songs he sang, which both in tradition and his now pen came from all around the world, not just Scotland, but other acts must be indigenous to their own heritage.

A weird stance, but there again, lots of things people say about him started with a grain of truth. The price of genius is rarely the ability to get along with others.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:30 AM

There's that awful word "heritage". Here I am, with ancestors from Lancashire, East Anglia, Kinross (Scotland) and Kildare (Ireland), born in Lancashire, raised in Glasgow, educated in Leeds, lived in London, resident in Sussex.

What shall I sing? Songs by Jimmie Rodgers, the Delmore Brothers and Leon Redbone, of course...

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:24 AM

MacColl came from Scots parents and grew up in Salford surrounded by Scots friends and neigbours.
His accent's never bothered me - on the contrary - he introduced me to 137 Child ballads, cornkisters, Burns songs... and many, many more beautiful Scots songs that, as a young Liverpudlian, would have totally passed me by.
He also taught me the beauties of the Scots dialect.
I remember seeing MacBeath at the Edinburgh Festival back in the mid 60s (Matt McGinn played the gatekeeper) - and coming away not having undersood a single word - MacColl's accents led me to appreciating that at a later date.
Here's to his memory as far as I'm concerned.
Cheers Ewan!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:26 AM

He was still English, not Scots.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:27 AM

After 20+ threads about Ewan, I DO wish he had lived to read & comment on all the opinions about him! Wouldn't THAT have been a lively debate?

Peggy doesn't seem to use the internet... as far as I can tell. I gave her a CD of some pictures I took of her concert at her childhood home, and she sent me a handwritten note instead of email.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:19 AM

You know what the Duke of Wellington said when they asked him if he was Irish, just because you're born in a stable - it doesn't mean you're a horse.

If Ewan wanted to a Scot, you should let him. Its like with transexuals who are born a man, but they have a womwn inside who wants to get out.

Ewan obviously had a Scotsman inside, trying to get out.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:48 AM

Ewan had Scots parents - gave him the best of both worlds (if you can count Salford as a world!)
I had Irish parents - gave me the best of both worlds, but never sure of which side of the fence I should be.
Still - it's an excuse to get in a bit of corpse-kicking (he died in 1989 you know!!)
Pity he was such a great singer and one of those who opened up all this beautifil music for us - then you could really have given his corpes a real kicking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:56 AM

Ewan was a theatrical person, knew how to dramatize his songs and added Peggy to enhance his music. He was also a socially conscious person which made him more relevant to me than other singers.

I don't think that you can portray an artistic performance without a considerable amount of education. Ewan and Lloyd both did this.

What made them relevant was their interpretations of the Scots Ballads and sea songs.

Let's face it. There are some traditional singers who are actually boring in their presentation.
The material is more important than their singing of it.

Of course, this brings up the question, what is entertainment and to whom?

Subjectivity comes up.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 12:45 PM

"He was still English, not Scots." People will self-identify as they will so I don't think you can truly say people are definitely this or that. Plus being English doesn't in itself preclude you from being Scottish. People can see themselves as both Scottish and English. My wife does for one! She was born and raised in England with one Scottish parent and one English parent - but she has now lived in Scotland for a longer period than she ever lived in England and has two Scottish children. I know other people with English parents who state they are 100% Scottish.Everyone is different.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

Jim Carroll has it correctly. The Scottish side of Ewan was political to me as in my discussions with him he was definitely of the " British working man" group. We disagreed on Scottish Republicanism/Indeepencece which I advocated. He sang about the Jacobite Rebellion but that was as close as he got to a Scottish political line. Every Scot knows his accent is theatrical but I don't think that is important in the great scheme of his great contribution to folk music in general.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:38 PM

My mother was from Scotland, therefore she is a Scot. My father was from Wales, therefore he is/was Welsh. I was born in England, therefore I am English.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:57 PM

My mother was from Scotland, therefore she is a Scot. My father was from Wales, therefore he is/was Welsh. I was born in England, therefore I am English.
but your ancestry is scottish /welsh

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:15 PM

My guitar is Japanese. But I don't like paper folding and flower arranging.

This is like Philosophy 101

Caesar is a duck
All ducks have webbed feet
Caesar has webbed feet

I mean.....who cares. if it worked for Ewan being a Scot. if it helped him find the mindset to create. all to the good.

And incidentally I find that works for me, thinking of myself as a folksinger.

Okay.....?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

I don't identify at all with the Welsh or the Scots in anyway at all, and as I believe I've said before I'm no folkie

Okay.....?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:34 PM

if you are not a folkie and not welsh or scots, i am afraid you do not win a crackerjack pencil or a cabbage or a night with joe offer, and you really might as well abandon all hope, you might as well back the giant bolster in the hennessey gold cup.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Mick Harris
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:37 PM

BTNG - If your parents were Scots and Welsh, that makes you Scots & Welsh, not English at all. You're a fraud thinking otherwise. You should be comfortable with who you are rather than fighting it.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:37 PM

whatever that lot meant....

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:53 PM

If anyone is interested in MacColl's musical roots, CAMSCO has re-issued very nice CD of Ewan singing with his mother, Betsy Miller.It's titled "A Garland of Scottish Folk Songs"

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:46 PM

"BTNG - If your parents were Scots and Welsh, that makes you Scots & Welsh, not English at all."

It is surely absurd to say to someone born and brought up in England that he is not English at all? If he doesn't equate with being Scottish or Welsh then as I said previously to him people will self identify as they please. We can't dictate what other people are. Just because someone's parents aren't English it doesn't mean that they aren't.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 10:13 PM

I am a fourth generation Canadian but I carry a Scottish name and Gaelic was the mother tongue of both of my parents. Canada is polarized into English and French classifications and because of the language that I speak most fluently I am considered English-Canadian although I carry no English genes. In no way do I feel English and I am sure that I would be feeling much more at home in the Hebrides than I would in London. Being Scottish is as much a culture as a nationality and I understand from whence Ewan came!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:18 PM

Oh I am VERY comfortable with who and what I am Harris, so please...cease and desist your nonsense, I've never fought what I am and I am English born and English bred. Let me repeat one more time, so you FULLY understand, I don't identify with the Scots and I don't identify with the Welsh, never have done, never will do.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:21 PM

I just a thought, my last name was originally Norman French....now that REALLY does mess with the "Harris equation" *LOL*

Nighty Night All !!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Mick Harris
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:25 AM

English born, Scots / Welsh bred. I have a cocker / springer cross. It's a cocker / springer cross, whichever field it's running in.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:03 AM

I was born on a plane in mid-flight.

My parents (nationality unknown) abandoned me in the jungle as a baby.

I was brought up by a family of wasps.

What does that make me (apart from a pathological liar)?

Home is where the heart is.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:35 AM

White Anglo Saxon Protestant[wasp]

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:02 AM

A recent TV programme about "Folk Music" featured a rendition of " The Shoals Of Herring " , introduced by a buxom and not unattractive Scottish lady singer , who stated that it was " A Scottish song " . Not true, of course, but I imagine Mr Miller would have been most gratified to hear it so described !!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:38 AM

nd if I remember correctly she didn't just say it was Scottish. She suggested it came from the north-east of Scotland. She probably incorrectly equated it with the north-east of Scotland because of the fishing industry there!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:02 PM

"but I imagine Mr Miller would have been most gratified to hear it so described !!"
Not really - he based it mainly on actuality recorded from two East Anglian fishermen, Sam Larner and Ronnie Balls (using actuality was one of the vital ingredients of many of MacColl's successful songs) A number of the Travellers we recorded claimed 'Freeborn Man' as an old Travellers song - it was neither 'Traveller' nor 'old'.
There was an eejit who claimed that MacColl "stole" 'Shoals' from traditional singers - MacColl (he changed his name you know - just like Robert Zimmermann) was always rather proud of that accusation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:52 PM

Harris give it up will you, you're now ceasing to be of interest. I'm English, proud of it, end of story, get over it

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Mick Harris
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:30 PM

Of course you are. Apologies for trolling. Sláinte! Dal ati!, Daliwch ati!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:11 PM

I rarely post on Mudcat now but factual errors need to be corrected.

The buxom Scottish lass you refer to was Irene Watt. She did not refer to the song in the terms you suggest. She is well aware of the origins of the song.

I checked it at the time because someone else told me that. It wasn't true then that she thought it was traditional and it isn't true now.

Type Irene Watt into Google - she is the Aberdeen one that comes up. Also Tide of Change.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:44 PM

Strangely enough that was the impression I got, when I watched the programme Dave - so it must have been an understandable mistake. Can't remember exactly what she said. But I suppose if Ewan thought of himself as a Scot - then it was a Scottish song.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:54 PM

Ewan was about English as Tony Blair was Scottish.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 07:37 PM

Harris I'll be perfectly honest with you, I never "got" the whole Celtic/Gaekic thing, nor do I understand other people's fascination with it.Don't understand the languages, and, if it came right down to it, if the celtic heritages disappeared tomorrow, I wouldn't care, it simply wouldn't phase me at all. That's where and a good many others stand, and if that's racist or whatever, too bad.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 08:29 PM

BTNG too weird mate.

Celtic culture isn't going to disappear. Orange and red aren't going to disappear. Nothing disappears.

you're not being racist, just a bit strange.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 08:37 PM

You'd lose an awful lot of good music, BTNG...

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:30 AM

"so it must have been an understandable mistake" I suspect we are all thinking about the same programme - though I can't remember exactly what it was. A section of the programme went to the north-east for songs of that area (as it had done in other areas) and Shoals of Herring was the song featured. So it was the serving up of the said song as an example of local songs which struck me rather than anything the singer said about it. That may of course have had more to do with the programmes editors etc than it did with the singer herself. However in this wee group we have three people now who remember it that way! It was certainly enough for me to comment at the time and my wife to say "calm down dear it's only a ......etc"

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 07:15 AM

Ewan MacColl wrote ' The shoals Of Herring ' utilising Labans theory of efforts, we all have characteristic efforts and patterns in our everyday speech, MacColl and Charles Parker analysed Sam Larners speech patterns, and MacColl wrote ' Shoals Of Herrings ' based on these results, a short while later he sang the song to Sam Larner, who said to Ewan ' I've known that song all my life ' MacColl later reported that Sam thought he knew it because there were no barriers, he was listening to his own speech patterns and efforts.

By the way, I don't really know what this thread is all about, anyone with any interest in Ewan MacColl and more the one brain cell [ except Colin Irwin apparently ] knows that Ewan was born in Salford and was christened Jimmy Miller.

Dave H

[on more than one occaision I've heard Colin Irwin repeat the myth that MacColl was born in Auchterader ]

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 07:55 AM

MacColl : Scottish parents, born and brought up in England
Blair: Scottish Father, Irish mother, born and educated in Scotland (up to a cerrtain age)

When it comes down to, nationality is a state of mind unless you want to play football for a National side.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 08:08 AM

"on more than one occaision I've heard Colin Irwin repeat the myth that MacColl was born in Auchterader"
In farness to Colin Irwin Dave, the misinformation appeared on at least one set of sleeve-notes - written by Ken Goldstein - I have no idea whether Ewan gave him tht information or whether it was an assumption.
His mother told me once "Oor Jimmy was born in England, but he's every bit as Scots as I am - and prood of it"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:02 PM

I contacted Irene.

This is what she writes:

Och that old argument again - don't they know that I never claimed it was Scottish or Traditional for that matter - the point was that when Gareth was interviewing me - all of which of course you don't see so the whole thing is taken out of context - we were talking about songs about fishing and fishing lassies. I sang Shoals of Herring cos it was my dad's favourite and I sang the Fisher Lassies song because was about the work that all my women ancestors did when they travelled to Yarmouth to gut the herring - and of course Gamrie aka Gardenstown - is mentioned in the song - that is where I come from originally and where all my ancestors came from.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:20 PM

There was an eejit who claimed that MacColl "stole" 'Shoals' from traditional singers - MacColl (he changed his name you know - just like Robert Zimmermann) was always rather proud of that accusation.

One of the standard pipe tune books (Cabar Feidh/Queens Own) prints the tune (slightly adapted to be a 3/4 march) as "Sgaoth Sgadan (Shoals of Herring". With no composer credited. So one such eejit is the British Army.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:32 PM

I understood that a friend of reg hall, was it lucy farrs husband?said that he thought either the song or the tune was traditional.
i think the song is a macColl composition and that reg halls friend was incorrect.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:51 PM

"so it must have been an understandable mistake" I suspect we are all thinking about the same programme - though I can't remember exactly what it was. A section of the programme went to the north-east for songs of that area (as it had done in other areas) and Shoals of Herring was the song featured. So it was the serving up of the said song as an example of local songs which struck me rather than anything the singer said about it. That may of course have had more to do with the programmes editors etc than it did with the singer herself. However in this wee group we have three people now who remember it that way!

I saw the programme and came away with the same impression. Irene's comment above makes it clear how it happened. The media seem incapable of getting it right - or perhaps they like to create a different impression because it makes a "more interesting" story and sod the facts.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:04 PM

And remember that the programme was supposed to be about sea SHANTIES - that Gareth whatsisname - choirmaster - trying to find out about them: neither "Shoals of Herring" nor "Fisher Lassies" fit that description, although they are both very good songs about the fishing industry and come out of the original series of The Radio Ballads. Can't see how "Shoals of Herring" could be called a Scottish song, (even tho' the Corries recorded it) when the locations are YARMOUTH, CROMER, etc! "Fisher Lassies" does mention a lot of N-East Scotland fishing villages, although even the Lassies all end up on Yarmouth quay!
I know Irene and love her singing and Graeme's, but I'd agree it's the producers who kind of steered the ship away from the shanties, or did not make it clear that they were digressing from shanties in that part of the programme

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:49 PM

Can't see how "Shoals of Herring" could be called a Scottish song, (even tho' the Corries recorded it) when the locations are YARMOUTH, CROMER, etc!

Because North Sea fisherfolk didn't stay within national boundaries any more than their work did.

Would you call "Twa Recruitin Sairgents" a Spanish song because it mentions Gibraltar?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:29 PM

no its Scottish because Ewan wanted to be a Scot. And adopted a Scottish persona.

Just like James Connolly is an Irish hero.

Cliff Richard is an English popstar.

Django Rheinhardt is a French icon summoning up images of the left bank etc.

Hitler is a German villain.

Billy the Kid is a western outlaw.

Its not what life hands you, its what you do with it.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:51 PM

..throughout the 1940's to the 1980's British character actors were praised for
and awarded for their abilities to 'do' accents and 'black up' if needs be...

..that is until we all grew up under a momentarily improved progressive education system and it became all too embarrassing......

Perhaps we should fondly remember those days as the "Sir Alec Guinness" years...???

in historical cultural context.. maybe we can understand
and try to forgive folk singers with misguided intentions
to sing in the 'correct' accent..

errmm.. has Meryl Streep blacked up yet...????

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: RTim
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 11:10 PM

But North Sea Holes again by MacColl - from the same programme as Shoals of Herring, - mentions Scotland!!

North Sea Holes
(Ewan MacColl)

Come all you gallant fishermen that plough the stormy sea,
The whole year round on the fishing grounds
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found.

It's there you'll find the Norfolk boys and the lads from Peterhead,
There's Buckie chiels and men from Shields,
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found.

From Fraserborough and Aberdeen, from Whitby, Yarmouth Town,
The fleet's away at the break of day
To the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
To the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found.

It's off with a boiler full of steam and your engine spic and span
To fish the grounds the North Sea round
And fish and knolls and the North Sea Holes
And try your luck at the North Shields Gut
With a catch of a hundred cran.

No need to wait for the wind and tide, you're the master of the sea,
Come calm or squall, just shoot and haul
And fill the hold with the fish to be sold
And steam ahead for the curing shed
And the buyers on the Yarmouth quay.

Come all you gallant fishermen that plough the stormy sea,
The whole year round on the fishing grounds
On the Northern Minch and the Norway Deeps,
On the banks and knolls of the North Sea Holes
Where the herring shoals are found.