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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 18 Jul 12 - 04:26 PM My apologies, the lengthy anonymous contribution above came from me. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MGM·Lion Date: 19 Jul 12 - 07:07 AM So, John, what do you think Mr Coyle had to do, with his late arrival on the scene & all, with the operation of the hunt? Really just curious. What is so 'fantastic' about the idea that it was trouble that they met, & that the anthropomorphised hare objected to MacMahon bringing, rather that a man who happened to have a local name but doesn't appear actually to have done anything? The 'justification' for my interpretation seems to me to be that it makes perfect contextual sense, whereas the random & otiose introduction of an inactive character who has no influence on events seems to me merely confusing. So now you 'justify' that interpretation, eh? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 19 Jul 12 - 07:47 AM I think it might be worthwhile explaining the nature of these hunts. They were conducted by local men over the local ground. Each man had his own dog, usually one, occasionally two and the hunt was conducted on foot. There was no 'master' no whippers-in and the number of people who took part was simply the number who appeared; anyone could take part, from within the district or from outside. In the song, there are named, Owen McMahon, young Toner, and some of us would hold, 'Coyle'. In the reading that allows Coyle to be a person, he took part, with his own dog, or dogs, in the Tassagh Hunt and he and they played a significant part in the killing of a hare which the local men held in some esteem. In this case, as with the hare eulogised in several other hunt songs, The Creggan White Hare, The Hare of Kilgrain, Geordie Hanna's 'hare on yonder hill" and others, the hare is personified. Sam Hanna Bell remarks on the matter in a chapter of his 'Erin's Orange Lily'. In a similar way, horses, like Skewball or Creeping Jane are afforded voices. Here, the Granemore Hare echoes the desire of his usual human hunters that he should have stayed out of the way of Coyle and his dog(s) and thereby lived to hunt another day. Incidentally, the line 'with a pack of strange dogs' probably indicates that Coyle was not a local, the 'strange dogs' were not his but those of the men whose hunt he had (temporarily) joined. It was not unusual that men would travel to the ground of another hunt. As I said above, there appear to be three and no more traditional versions and about the same number of versions that, because of their closeness to the area or to Northern Irish hunting practices, have more authority than others. The versions by Steeleye Span and others contain misunderstandings and mishearings that merely confuse. If we want to find out what something means to those whose experience is commemorated, we must go back to the versions closest to those people. Unless evidence, gained hopefully by questioning people in the locality of this hunt, can be brought forward to support any other view, I do not intend to contribute again, though, for the sake af clarity, I should say that I believe any interpretation save the mundane, to be a farrago. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 19 Jul 12 - 11:14 AM "Can we abandon conjecture and look at what singers and collectors have said about this song?" In other words, can we abandon the thoughts of lowly Mudcatters and respect the conjectures of people of yore? No, why should we? We can conjecture as well as anybody else, modern or historic. Shakespeare grew up in the country, and I believe that when he wrote "shuffle off this mortal coil," he was thinking of the soul shuffling off the body the way a snake shuffles off its skin. Remember he had to keep the attention of rowdy audience, and a vivid image like that would appeal to it. I believe Coyle appears in the song because he almost rhymes with 'while.' I hope that's mundane enough. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 20 Jul 12 - 12:30 AM John - don't keep trying to discuss rationally with people who are bound and determined to be wrong. You'll be spinning your wheels, and they will continue to subject you to their Chinese water-torture.(Ooh, mixing metaphors). Damn close to trolling, if you ask me, which nobody did. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MGM·Lion Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:16 AM Seamus Form Message permanently bookmarked: It is my policy to make no further response than this to posts which are purely abusive, as I take yours to be. No further correspondence will be entered into. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: Big Mick Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:17 AM John Moulden has always represented several things to me. 1) He is a gentleman, even to those he must be patient with. 2) He is an excellent researcher who thoroughly studies the customs, culture, and context of the ltimes in which the lyric in question was written. 3) His scholarship is universally respected by those in the know on three continents, including myself. John, I would suggest that you follow Seamus' advice. I don't have a problem with random musings, but there is no point in engaging in debate with those who lack respect for your scholarship. By the way, any new books in the works? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: Big Mick Date: 20 Jul 12 - 01:20 AM MtheGM, that is very kind of you. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MGM·Lion Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:05 AM ... and of you, Big Mick. I have the utmost respect for John Moulden's scholarship and reputation; but was not aware that such a reputation, or such respect, rendered his views infallibly ex cathedra indisputable. I shouldn't imagine that he would expect such treatment, either ~~ not if he is truly scholarly. FWIW, which appears to some to be not all that much, I stick to my view of the correct interpretation, which nobody has made any attempt to disprove, rather than presenting generally accepted alternatives which seem to me erroneous. I don't know that it would be altogether out of place here to point out that, though I am now old and to a large extent a forgotten yesterday's man, there was a time, from about 60s-90s, when I was a very regular critic and feature writer on folk matters for such prestigious journals asThe Times, The Guardian, Folk Review, Plays & Players, Notes & Queries (OUP), The Glasgow Herald, The Irish Press..., when my own scholarship & views had a certain not entirely unfavourable reputation. Disagree with me all you will ~ that is what a forum like this is for: but I should prefer not to be patronised by such as I see no particular reason to kowtow to, if that is not too much to ask. ~MGM~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MGM·Lion Date: 20 Jul 12 - 05:56 AM Ah ~~ four hours and no rejoinder. How interesting. Perhaps some recent posters have decided, on better recollection, to remove their tongues from Mr Moulden's fundament. I cannot but hazard that he may well have been acutely embarrassed by the outright sycophancy to which he has been subjected in some of the latest contributions to this thread. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MartinRyan Date: 20 Jul 12 - 02:02 PM Kyle Or, in other words, Good knight suite prints... Regards P.s. with apologies to MnG |
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Subject: Lyr Add: GRANEMORE HARE From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:07 PM A small experiment - it consists of substituting the word 'coil' for 'Coyle' where it occurs in the text offered by Robin Morton in Folksongs Sung in Ulster'. It is quite close to the second text offered above except for the addition of a third verse. It's differences mark the authentic speech of the area it comes from: GRANEMORE HARE Last Saturday morning, our horns they did blow To the green hills round Tassagh our huntsmen did go For to meet the bold sportsmen from round Keady town None loved the sport better than the boys from Maydown And when we arrived they were all standing there So we took to the green fields in search of the hare We did not go far when someone gave a cheer Over high hills and valleys this "puss" she did steer When she got to the heather she tried them to shun, But our dogs never missed one inch where she run, They kept well packed when going over the hill, For they had set themselves this "puss" for to kill. With our dogs all abreast and that big mountain hare And the sweet sounding music, it rang through the air Straight for the Black Bank for to try them once more And it was her last sight round the Hills of Granemore And as they trailed on to where "puss", she did lie She sprang to her feet for to bid them goodbye Their music, it ceased and her cry we could hear Saying, "Bad luck to the ones brought you Maydown dogs here" "Last night as I lay content in the glen 'Twas little I thought of dogs or of men But when going home at the clear break of day I could hear the long horn that young Toner doth play" "It being so early I stopped for a while It was little I thought they were going to meet Coyle [or, 'coil'?] If I had knew that I would have lay near the town And tried to get clear of those dogs from Maydown" "Now that I'm dying, the sport is all done No more through the green fields round Keady I'll run Or feed in the glen on a cold winter's night Nor go home to my den when it's breaking daylight" "I blame MacMahon for bringing Coyle [or, 'coil'?] here He's been at the same caper for many a long year Every Saturday and Sunday, he never gived o'er With a pack of strange dogs round the Hills of Granemore" In my view, if it's 'coil' once, it has to be 'coil' twice: or, if it's 'Coyle' it needs to be 'Coyle' both times. Do both readings make sense? Certainly, in this version, Coyle is not 'arbitrarily introduced'. Does anyone have evidence on how common the word 'coil', in the sense used by M G-M, would be in the common English usage of the Armagh/Tyrone area? By the way, I make it a policy to comment only on matters that have to do with the occurrence and circulation of vernacular songs in oral tradition or popular print. I am not interested in defending my reputation; it depends absolutely on how I conduct and report on my research and on how I couch my arguments. If anyone wishes to be unpleasant in my defence or in order to attack me or my views, I will not join in. Michael, I know your work but in this I think that your position is much more difficult to defend than to assert. Have you a defence? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MGM·Lion Date: 20 Jul 12 - 03:51 PM "Defend/defence" to what, or in what sense, John? I have simply suggested what I believe to be a truer reading than [or at very least a viable alternative to] the transcription most often given: for which I have been denounced as a 'troll', and enjoined to have more respect for your authority because someone on Christian names with you points out in an aside that you have written books, cor! Surprised to find BM coming over like this ~~ have never prevuously had him earmarked as that sort of creep. But I am genuinely exercised as to what you think I should be "defending": it seems you mean more than the view I have expressed? If you do simply mean defence of my view: surely "little they thought they were going to meet coil" would mean, quite literally, if my reading is correct, "they were surprised to run into a bit of trouble, which made them pause for a while". ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MGM·Lion Date: 21 Jul 12 - 03:17 AM "Does anyone have evidence on how common the word 'coil', in the sense used by M G-M, would be in the common English usage of the Armagh/Tyrone area?" asks John Moulden above. I find this on an earlier thread:~ Subject: Tune Add: HARE OF KILGRAIN From: Malcolm Douglas - PM Date: 26 Apr 03 - 11:41 AM The text in Sam Henry's Songs of the People (University of Georgia Press, 1990, p.31) is a collation from three unidentified sources; one presumably would be William Sloan of Dundooan (formerly Bushmills) who provided the tune. Henry's notes attribute authorship of the song to James Sloan of Topland, Ballyrock, c.1770, and further comment: "An 18th-century hunting song supposed to have been written by the hare... The song must have been written about 1770. Its author['s]... great grandchildren are still in the district." The OED gives usages of "coil" in sense of fuss or tumult up to Charles Reade's The Cloister & The Hearth [1861] ~~ so word still current nearly 100 years after Henry's speculation as to date of composition of the Greenmore song. All very well for dictionaries to call 'coil' archaic in this sense: if still in current use in mid-C19, hardly an 'archaism' in sense that eg 'yclept' & 'gadzooks' are, is it? And if still current in 1770, then why not in Armagh/Tyrone as much as anywhere else? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jul 12 - 03:31 AM The word seems to have been treated as a name in virtually all the versions, including local ones. The name 'Coyle' is common in the Armagh/Monaghan area and turns up regularly in connection with sporting activities, if you can describe the persecution and killing of animals as 'sport' - (sorry - had a traumatic experience as a teenager at a 'sporting' event at Waterloo, Merseyside, where I witnessed a crowd cheering on two dogs who were tearing a live hare in half - 'shuffling off its mortal coil' so to speak). Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jul 12 - 06:06 AM Coupled with the fact that there is no evidence whatever of 'Coil' or 'Coyle' being used in the 'Bardic' sense as a slang or colloqial term in Ireland - Share, Dolan, O'Muirithe (slang experts) give no reference to it. A local (Clare) handbook of 'Gaelicisms' gived coileen as "a whelp - usually applied to a woman, but that's all. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MGM·Lion Date: 21 Jul 12 - 08:21 AM It wasn't a 'slang or colloquial term', Jim. It was a perfectly standard word, right up, as I have shown, at least to mid-C19 [Reade: Cloister & Hearth, 1861 - OED]. So why shouldn't it have been used in Armagh as well as anywhere else?. ~M~ |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE GRANEMORE HARE From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 27 Jul 12 - 10:12 AM I'm now in a position to answer my own questions as to what the local people would say about the 'Coyle', 'coil' controversy. I consulted Seán Mone of Keady, Co Armagh, local singer and song maker. He has sent me a copy of an article from a booklet produced in 1984 by the local GAA club, St Mary's Granemore. Page 106 has the following by a man who, as a son of the owner of The Rock Bar, mentioned in the article, has claim to some authority. The Granemore Hare (by Joe McGleenan) The story of the Granemore Hare as told in the song can be heard sung by traditional singers not only throughout Ireland but further afield in England and America. Hunt¬ing the hare as a pastime is enjoyed by many and the huntsmen are a breed apart for when they gather together after a day's hunting their hours are filled with songs and stories of past chases and favourite dogs. The chase mentioned in the song took place in the 1933/34 season and it is believed that the song originated in the Toner household of Joe and Pat Toner. Toners' was one of the favourite "ceili" houses where everyone gathered to tell stories and sing songs of hunting and memorable chases. Many of the men mentioned in the song are in the photograph as are some of the dogs. The "Keady, Lower Darkley, Granemore and Tassagh Hunt Club" as was in existence at the time was famous throughout the hunt¬ing fraternity. The dogs in fact were even more famous than their owners as was discovered in researching this story when the men spoken too could recognise every dog in the photo quicker than their owner. Owen McMahon's dog "Fifer" was well known as well as Peter McArdle's "Dancer", Arthur Molloy's "Stormer, Statley and Countess", Frank Rocks "Harper", Joe McCann's "Shamrock", Johnny McClelland's "Famous", Paddy Cassidy's "Drifter", Paddy Toner's "Rover and Crowner" and Patrick Hughes "Violet". Patrick Deesey's version of the chase which led to the song gives some insight into the fervour generated by the hunt. He relates how he collected the dogs with pride of place being given to the late Patrick Hughes dog "Violet". Owen McMahon met Billy Coyle with his men and dogs from Blackwatertown on the Markethill Road. They had walked from Blackwatertown and after raising two hares they all made their way through Granemore. Every hare has its circuit around which it runs when pursued by the dogs and the Granemore Hare was well known as unlike most hares in the area it remained in a circuit of the Granemore Hills and did not run for the mountains to lose its pursuers in the heather. Huntsmen are all renowned for their fairness in the chase and their dislike of a kill. Their sport is in watching the chase and calling off their dogs when a kill is likely. The outcome of this particular chase was that the "pack of strange dogs" killed the Granemore Hare much to the annoyance of Owen McMahon and Paddy Toner. The rivalry between the hunt followers was always keen with each area comparing their dogs, with fair-mindness and sportsmanship the main ingredients of each hunt. Patrick relates how all the huntsmen retired to the "Rock Bar" after the hunt for a night of songs and story-telling. This passion for hunting the hare still continues today with men like Jim Haughey, Jim McClelland, Joe McCann, James McDonald, Pat Digby and Frank O'Hare. Like every traditional song the exact origins are unknown with not only Joe and Pat Toner involved but also Billy Coyle and possibly a Monaghan Poet. END OF ARTICLE I have regularised some of Joe McGleenan's spelling. This is the text of the song given in the article. There are obvious slight problems, like the lack of rhyme in the fourth verse but nothing poses a real problem. The Granemore Hare On a fine winters morning our horns hard did blow, To the green fields of Tassagh our huntsmen did go, To meet those good sports from around Keady town None loved the sport better than the boys of May down. When we arrived they were all standing there We took to the green fields In search of a hare We hadn't gone far till someone gave a cheer Over high hill and valley a hare she did steer. With our dogs all abreast on that big mountain hare Their sweet charming music rang through the air. Straight to the 'Breague for to try them once more But it was her last view of the Hills of Granemore. And as she led on what a beautiful sight There were dogs brown and yellow and dogs black and white Their cry was delightful going 'over the Blackbank Because they had set themselves this wee hare to kill. When she got to the heather she tried them to shun But our dogs never missed an inch where she run, And as they chased up to where pussy lay down Their sweet heavy tongues could be heard In Newtown. And as they chased up to where pussy did lie She jumped to her feet for to bid them goodbye But the cry it did cease and all we could hear 'Twas my curse on the man brought you Maydown dogs here. For last night as I lay so content In the glen 'Tis little I thought of hounds or of men And when going home at the clear break of day I could hear die long horn that young Toner doth play. I sat for to listen or rest for a while 'Tis little I thought he was going to meet Coyle. If I had a knew I'd have lay near the town It's then I'd have been clear of these dogs from May down. But it's now that I'm dying and my life is done Never more to the green fields of Keady I'll run Or feed in the glen on a long winter's night Or go home to my den when it's breaking daylight. But I blame McMahon tor bringing Coyle here He's been at this "auld Caper" for many's a year Saturday and Sunday he never goes oer With a good pack of hounds on the hills of Granemore. END OF SONG AS GIVEN I have done a little more inquiry. It might be useful to elucidate the locality: Tassagh is located just off the Granemore Road between Keady and the Markethill Road, in Co Armagh. Granemore is at 8833 of the Irish 1:50000 Discoverer/Discovery map series; Tassagh is further north and in the 'lowlands'. It is likely that the hunt took place in the foothills of the hills that form part of the Fews Forest. Further inquiry on the internet, especially from the 1901 and 1911 Irish Census records, lead to probable identifications of Owen McMahon and William Coyle. In 1911, Owen McMahon lived with his widowed mother in Tassagh townland and was aged 39. Willie Coyle was in Drumduff, Co Armagh, aged 15 in 1901 but absent in 1911. His brother James lived at home in Drumduff in 1901 and was a National School Teacher aged 31. In 1911 James was 41 and living in Moy, married with a young son and a National School Teacher. By that time their father, also William Coyle was 72 so I conjecture that William returned at some time to work the farm and perhaps inherited; a National School Teacher had much more status than a farmer and probably earned more – the Land Annuity Returns for 1896 show that William Coyle farmed just over 6 acres. Drumduff is within a kilometre of Maydown (close to Benburb). Accordingly, it is clear that the Coyle of the song was a person and a real person. This closes my account and if it is not conclude to the discussion someone has to produce some real evidence. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 27 Jul 12 - 10:17 AM Sorry, the last sentence of the above should read. This closes my account and if it is not to conclude the discussion someone has to produce some real evidence. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: MGM·Lion Date: 27 Jul 12 - 11:26 AM Superb research, John, which I much admire and fully accept. I should like to think that perhaps somewhere in the mind of the maker of the lyric might have lingered some more or less conscious Metaphysical-style poetic pun, about how Coyle was the bringer of coil. But, alas, I suspect that is probably only my fancy, and am happy indeed to give best to so conclusive a piece of scholarship. Adieu. No more through the green fields of Keady I'll run, seeking for images. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST,John Moulden Date: 27 Jul 12 - 12:45 PM Thank you Michael, it is a pleasure to contend with someone so generous. By the way, I completely approve of new interpretations, or even misunderstandings, of traditional songs; how else did variants arise? The changes indicate changes of mentality or experience as distance or time passes. It's only in the matter of the context in which the song was made that I would insist on the exercise of science. In all else, flights of fancy are not only to be condoned but encouraged. Folklore aspires to be disciplined and objective, singing is an Art; the rules are different. Please retain your images. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST,Rob Newell Date: 18 Jan 19 - 08:50 AM Hi all At the risk of resurrecting a long dead debate, I had heard (somewhere) that there was supposed to be a supernatural element to the Granemore Hare. The Hare curses Coyle to roam the hills of Granemore forever with a pack a strange (i.e. ghostly) dogs! Did anyone else hear this interpretation? I always thought the dogs were just described as strange because they came from a more distant pack |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST Date: 18 Jan 19 - 09:24 AM I used to think that "Coyle" was one of the Maydown hounds, but now I veer towards Coyle being the keeper of a pair based in Maydown. Al O'Donnell |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST,Akenaton Date: 18 Jan 19 - 09:25 AM Sorry that was me ....keeper of hounds. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fields of Greenmore From: GUEST,Rob Newell Date: 18 Jan 19 - 12:00 PM Hi Coyle's identify is pretty well established in John Moulden's long post a few above ours. I was just asking about the curse (which only appears in some versions), but thanks for the opportunity to correct myself - of course it was MacMahon who was cursed: Last verse: "My curse on MacMahon for bringing Coyle here He's been at his old capers for many's the year From Friday to Sunday, he'll never give o'er With a pack of strange dogs round the Hills of Granemore. but was the nature of the curse to be out on the hills forever (see use of the future tense in the penultimate line)? So sorry I can't remember where I heard this suggestion. Hope Mudcatters can enlighten. Cheers |
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