Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:11 AM

Lady Gregory is among people who have translated Dónal Óg into English (original author/s not known). I see I referred to her in my message of 24 Nov 99 above; also have a look at the other threads about this song and you may find the entire Lady Gregory version.

I don't know whether her version is the one used in the film or why the song was chosen for the film

Subject: RE: 'The Dead'
From: GUEST,Ella
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 01:43 AM

GUEST, Polly;

The man reciting the poem in 'The Dead' is not gabreil. Gabriel is looking on. the verses the other man says are:

It is late last night the dog was speaking of you;
the snipe was speaking of you in her deep marsh.
It is you are the lonely bird through the woods;
and that you may be without a mate until you find me.

You promised me, and you said a lie to me,
that you would be before me where the sheep are flocked;
I gave a whistle and three hundred cries to you,
and I found nothing there but a bleating lamb.

You promised me a thing that was hard for you,
a ship of gold under a silver mast;
twelve towns with a market in all of them,
and a fine white court by the side of the sea.

You promised me a thing that is not possible,
that you would give me gloves of the skin of a fish;
that you would give me shoes of the skin of a bird;
and a suit of the dearest silk in Ireland.

My mother said to me not to be talking with you today,
or tomorrow, or on the Sunday;
it was a bad time she took for telling me that;
it was shutting the door after the house was robbed.

You have taken the east from me; you have taken the west from me;
you have taken what is before me and what is behind me;
you have taken the moon, you have taken the sun from me;
and my fear is great that you have taken God from me!

I'm watching 'The Dead' right now and I'd really liketo fidn the Gaelic version of these precuise lyrics;they're my favourite arrangement of 'Donal Og'. If anyone knows them pleace contact me on [e-mail].

-Ella

Subject: Origins: Donal og
From: GUEST,Ellie
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 04:15 AM

Hi guys,
I am looking for information on the origins of Donal Og (among other songs). Preferably attributable sources as it's for a dissertation. Any ideas gratefully received!

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal og
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

Put "donal og" in the filter box and select "all" for the period.
You will find many threads with what you want.
Good luck.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal og
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 06:43 PM

The usual Mudcat-these-days mean reaction to a request- it's all been said before, go and look it up. No "I sing it this way".. "I got it from".. "Sean Nose sang it like..."

I suspect no one here knows what having a song means now.

But sadly, I fear that the search for origins will be in vain. Search Comhltas archives, not here, and Cecil Sharp House, and RTE maybe, and write to Shirley Collins because she knows where to look, but in the end I think all you'll find is "Ireland"... and not even much of a terminus post.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:20 AM

Hi, Ellie - I'm the music editor, so I have magic powers to move you over to this thread, which already has extensive discussion of this song. Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song. Note that the 1947 date is the earliest entry among the books indexed by the Ballad Index, which emphasizes books published in the U.S.

Donall Og (Young Donald)

DESCRIPTION: Gaelic or English: Singer tells her lover Donal to take her with him, that he'll be well taken care of. She reproaches him for breaking his promise; he says she has ignored him. She says that he is always in her mind, and has taken her past and her future
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1947 (Hoagland)
LONG DESCRIPTION: Gaelic or English: Singer tells her lover, Donall Og (young Donald) to take her with him on his travels, that he'll be well taken care of (and sleep with the Greek king's daughter). She reproaches him for breaking his promise; he replies that she has rejected and ignored him. She says that he is always in her mind, even in the church where she should be thinking of Christ's passion. She says he has taken her past and her future, and perhaps will even take away God himself
KEYWORDS: hardheartedness love request rejection farewell parting travel abandonment lover foreignlanguage
FOUND IN: Ireland Britain(Scotland)
REFERENCES (3 citations):
Kennedy 31, "Donall Og [Young Donald]" (1 text in Irish Gaelic + translation, 1 tune)
ADDITIONAL: Kathleen Hoagland, editor, One Thousand Years of Irish Poetry (New York, 1947), pp. 238-240, "Donall Oge: Grief of a Girl's Heart" (1 text, translated by Lady Gregory)
Donagh MacDonagh and Lennox Robinson, _The Oxford Book of Irish Verse_ (Oxford, 1958, 1979), pp. 106-108, "Donal Oge: Grief of a Girl's Heart" (1 text, translated by Lady Gregory)
Roud #3379
ALTERNATE TITLES:
Donald Og
Donal Og
Donal Ogue
NOTES: A personal note: Kennedy calls this "one of the most intense love songs in the Irish language." Or in English; I can testify that if you are carrying a serious torch for someone, this song can bring you to tears every time. - PJS
It's pretty strong even if you *aren't* carrying a torch. The English version is reported by Norman Buchan (notes to the recording "The Fisher Family") to have been translated by Frank O'Connor. (The translation by Lady Gregory quoted by Hoagland and MacDonogh/Robinson is very different, and hardly even poetry; I doubt anyone will ever sing it.)
The text sung by Joyce Fisher omits the references to promise-breaking, making the song a lost love song rather than a betrayal song. The Fishers reportedly had it from Bob Clancey.
Seosamh O Duibhginn devoted a monograph to the variant texts of this song; according to Kennedy, it contains nearly every version ever collected. - RBW
File: K031

---

Go to the Ballad Search form
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The Ballad Index Copyright 2014 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

---

Here's the rather cryptic entry from the archive of Peter Kennedy's folktrax.org:

DONALL OG - "Young Donald" - Irish Gaelic - O DUIBHGINN 1960 many variant texts - KENNEDY FSBI 1975 # 31 Rodgers -- Kitty RODGERS rec by Noel Hamilton, Baile Thior (Torre Island) 1967: FTX-003 - Sheila GALLAGHER rec by PK, Co Donegal 1953 - Maire AINE NI DHONNCHADHA, Connemara: CLADDAGH CC-6 1970 - Seamus ENNIS: GAEL-LINN CEF-009 [nd] - O BOYLE Family: CEOLTA GAEL OSS-2 1971 on d/cass 0938-C60

DONALL OG - ("Charming Cailin Ruadh") - Song in English - Traveller finds a maid complaining - the bugle sounds and she bids adieu - (transl from Gaelic by Frank O Connor) -- Michael CRONIN of Macroom Co Cork rec by Alan Lomax, Dublin 1951: 7"RTR- 0587 - Kate MAUDE rec by PK, London 1968 tape - Joyce FISHER (voc/ gtr): TOPIC 12-T-137 1966 - Paddy TUNNEY: TOPIC 12-TS- 264 1975 - Roger NICHOLSON (dulc): LEADER LER-2094 1976 tune only Instrum - CHIEFTAINS 2: TARA (CLADDAGH) TA-4 cass - Instrum DAMBUSTER DAM-006/ CASS-0350

---

As Stewie says in the first message, there's an entire book published in 1960 titled Dónall Óg, edited by Seosamh Ó Duibhginn (1914–94) - see the note in the Ballad Index entry about Seosamh Ó Duibhginn.

You may also have already checked the Website of the Irish Traditional Music Archive, www.itma.ie - but it's more fun to go there in person. It's worth a trip to Dublin.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

And don't be discouraged by GUEST 06:43 PM. If it's for a dissertation it's the content and evidence of your work looking for it, thinking about it and understanding it that matters. If you conclude that nobody knows, that's OK as long as you show why.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 05:24 AM

Here's something from Libby Larsen, who composed a vocal setting of the poem:

Composer's Notes:
The 8th century poem "Donal Oge," (Anonymous) is an abandoned lover's anguished lament. In it the singer begs Donal Oge to take her with him, saying that if he does she will devote herself to him fully, even if in physical danger. She argues that he has made impossible promises to her, all of which he has broken, yet she would do anything to stay near him. She pleads that she would be better for him than a "high, proud, spendthrift lady". She cries out in torment that he has taken everything from her and finally that she mortally fears that he has taken God from her.

"Donall Oge: Grief of a Girl's Heart" was translated from Gaelic into English by Lady Augusta Gregory, renown Irish dramatist, folklorist and leader in the Irish literary Revival. For this setting, I have used seven of the poems' fourteen stanzas. This ballad has been traced to the 8th century, suggesting that name Donal Oge (Donald the Young), the object of the poem, may possibly be traced to historical figures through Irish the rule of 11th-12th century Clan MacCarthy in the House of Desmond back in time to the 8th and 9th century rule of the house of Carbery in the over kingdom of Munster in the 8th century. It is most likely that the Donal Oge of the poem is a composite folklore figure formed over the centuries in which this ballad has been sung.

—Libby Larsen

Note that above, Philippa says that the original poem came from the 17th-19th century. I didn't see where Philippa got her information, and Larsen does not say where she found information that the poem came from the 8th century. I think "I don't know" is the most honest answer. Wikipedia says Isabella Augusta, Lady Gregory, was born 15 March 1852 and died 22 May 1932.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 May 16 - 03:51 PM

On long-playing vinyl, there is an unaccompanied performance dating back to before 1960, by Máire Ní Scolaí. This recording can be "heard" as a YouTube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y1a-H8DIUg

Probably this comes from her broadcast studio recordings for Radio &Eireann/RTÉ. The vinyl LP is "Máire Ní Scolaí," issued by Gael Linn around 1971.

Ní Scolaí sings six verses of "Dónall Óg." I cannot identify her fifth verse; no offense to the singer, as she sings her fifth verse with great dramatic subtlety; can anyone else do more to recognise/identify her Verse 5? Here is an attempt to sum up the verse order from her performance.

Dónall Óg
(traditional)

Verse 1: A Dhónaill Óig, má théir thar fharraige...

Verse 2: Is déanach aréir a labhair an gadhar ort...

Verse 3: Gheall tú dhomsa, is rinne tú bréag liom...

Verse 4: Gheall tú dhomsa ní ba dheacair dhuit...

Verse 5 [fill in the blank]

Verse 6: Bhain tú soir 'gus bhain tú siar dhíom...

(Wow, what a voice she had)

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Noreen
Date: 25 May 16 - 05:55 PM

Máire Ní Scolaí

Lovely voice yes, but too much swooping for my taste.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 May 16 - 07:39 PM

portamento

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 25 May 16 - 09:56 PM

This may have been discussed, but I could not find it-

Can someone tell me what's up with the "Greek King's daughter" What is she doing in Ireland?

Forgive my ignorance
J

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Noreen
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:59 AM

You may call it portamento, but I feel it is overdone here, and not in keeping with a traditional style.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:05 PM

Greek king's daughter is more likely Great king's daughter ie the High King of all Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 May 16 - 06:13 PM

You need to refer to the Irish/Gaelic lyric of origin, which is liberally quoted and repeated in posts throughout this thread. Check the last line of that first verse. Is it truly the Gaelic word for "Greek"? If it is, then you have to consider what sort of grand literary metaphor is introduced with that turn of phrase. Helen of Troy, or someone else?

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 26 May 16 - 11:00 PM

If it were only in the translation, I'd agree with "GUEST"; perhaps a misheard word or typo, but in fact the Irish Gaelic says "Ri Greige" which, I believe, means "Greek King". I have just found a Scots Gaelic story from Nova Scotia called "Righ na Greige" which may offer some clues...
Julia

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 26 May 16 - 11:32 PM

Popular Tales of the West Highlands, Vol. III by J. F. Campbell [1890]
from THE YELLOW MUILEARTEACH
from the recitation of Angus MacDonald, Staoine-breac, South Uist, September 1860, and again from that of Allan MacPhie, tailor. MacDonald gives the same authority for it as for the "Great Fool," and MacPhie says he learnt it from one Donald MacIntyre, who has gone to America, and if living is now about 80 years of age. In Barra, I heard it from Alexander MacDonald, Burgh; and from Donald MacPhie, smith, Brubhaig, who learnt it from an uncle of his, Hector MacLaine, also a smith. Some versions have lines which are wanting in others, and in some lines there are a few slight variations. I have inserted those lines and words which I thought best when differences occurred.


30
"Gather to me my worthy race,
King of the Spaniards and his force,
The king of Greece and of Gallia clean,
King of Hispania and of the Inds."

31
Gather of the whole world the clan,
The children of a king and of a single man,
Goblin or champion shall not get clear
From the beautiful Fhinn of the yellow hair.



Seven score ships, and one thousand
Gathered the king, what a heavy band
For the taking of all Eirinn,
Could it be brought to Fionn, prince of the Finne.

---------

also this in the notes of "Popular Tales of the West Highlands" by J.F.Campbell 1860

Tighearn, a lord, or proprietor of land ; from ti fhearann,
person of lands. In this line tighearnas is used in the same
sense as majesty. Tighearn was evidently synonymous with
Righ, king, at one time, and is no doubt the same word as the
Greek, turannos, a king, U. M'L.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 16 - 03:42 PM

Till 1453 there was no Greek KIng only the Byzantine Emperor....
This is considerably later than the origins of the song.
Yes trade routes to the Med. exhisted at the 8th cantury and people did travel but the daughter of a Greek king is an unlikely visitor to the Emerald isle.The word geeek could have been mondegreened in Gaelic as easily as in English and mis translated in and out of both languages.
Just for good measure there was a Great King in Scotland as well as Ireland at the time of the ballads appearance.
OK I'll duck now.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 09:49 PM

What are you even talking about Greek mythology is FULL of Greek king's daughters and obviously it is that to which it refers. How is this lost on you?

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 07:10 AM

Is Donald really equivalent to Dónal? Surely Daniel would be the usual Englishing if you're going to English it?

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 03:31 PM

Donal is Donal

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 16 Dec 17 - 05:20 PM

I think the Greek king's daughter was deliberate, but fanciful, doesn't infer that the composer knew of any Greek king's daughters in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Marje
Date: 16 Dec 17 - 06:23 PM

Donald is the English version of Donal. Daniel is an ancient Hebrew name with completely different etymology.

I don't suppose there was a particular Greek princess being referred to; the singer just means that Donal can sleep with the most high-born and exotic woman he can get his hands on, and she won't mind.

Marje

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:09 AM

exactly, marje.this thread is in danger of being similiar to 'one who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing"

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:03 PM

Donald is surely a separate Scottish name? Any Dónals I know use Daniel in English if they're using a different name for English; this is the norm in Ireland.

To complicate things, O'Donnell, in Irish, would be Ó Dhomhnaill, or son of Dónal.

The Greek king's daughter may very well have a subsidiary meaning in 17th- or 18th-century Irish; many confusing-in-English terms do.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Marje
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:41 PM

A brief internet search shows that the name Donal (sorry, can't add the accent on this tablet) is an old Irish name (also spelled Domhnall). The Scots either use a similar Gaelic form or the Anglicised form which adds a -d, possibly by analogy with names like Ronald.

Daniel is an ancient Hebrew, Old-Testament name. It sounds a bit like Donal - in fact quite a lot like it in an Irish accent - but the resemblance is superficial. It has a different source and etymology. There's nothing to stop Irish Donals from styling themselves as Daniels, but the names are not linguistically connected.

Marje

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:43 PM

In Scotland you would expect a Donal to be Donald. Donal is basically the English phonetic spelling of the Scottish Gaelic spelling usually Domhnall.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Dec 17 - 04:46 PM

Just to show Marje is correct

http://www.clandonald.org/

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 01:39 AM

The names may not be linguistically connected, but Dónal in Irish and Daniel in English (or Hebrew or Aramaic or whatever) are normally versions of each other in Ireland.

I know a couple of people called Donald in Ireland, but their names are consciously Scottish.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 02:57 AM

For instance, songs in honour of Daniel O'Connell are to Dónal Ó Chonaill.

References to the Book of Daniel in old Bibles and dictionaries in Irish are inevitably translated as Dónal (or its earlier spelling, Domhnall).

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 05:20 AM

yes well donald duck was not scottish neither was donald crowhurst,

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 05:26 AM

> I don't suppose there was a particular Greek princess being referred to; the singer just means that Donal can sleep with the most high-born and exotic woman he can get his hands on, and she won't mind. <

That line has always puzzled me, so thank you, Marje, for a possible explanation, although it still seems an odd way for the girl to put it.

> The Greek king's daughter may very well have a subsidiary meaning in 17th- or 18th-century Irish; many confusing-in-English terms do. <

So there may be a better explanation. Any chance of anyone finding out that that may have been?

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 04:23 AM

Ask Irish mediaevalists…

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Gabriel
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 11:39 AM

I was always told that sleeping with the "Greek King's daughter' was a promise of significant and uninhibited sexual fulfilment. Though the precise words used to describe it to me were more explicit.

By the way, the requested Limerick by James Joyce about Lady Gregory goes:
There was an old lady named Gregory
Who cried, "Come, all ye poets in beggary."
She found her imprudence
when hundreds of students
Cried, "We're in that noble category."

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 10:57 AM

Augusta Gregory's translation is clearer:

O Donal Oge, if you go across the sea,
Bring myself with you, and do not forget it;
And you will have a sweetheart for fair days and market days,
And the daughter of the King of Greece beside you at night.

So the speaker is promising that she herself will be as good as the daughter of the King of Greece to Donal, an extravagant promise, but sure you never know.

Subject: RE: Origins: Donal Og (Young Donald)
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:27 AM

From the context, the time sounds like somewhere between the 16th and 18th centuries; Dónal is clearly living as a woodkerne, on his keeping in the forests - "it is you are the lonely bird through the woods"; he is also clearly a man of some wealth and power, whether this still exists for him or not, since he's able to promise the speaker "twelve towns with a market in all of them, and a fine white court by the side of the sea… and a suit of the dearest silk in Ireland" as well as the less realistic offers of things that appear in the traditional mystery tales: a ship of gold under a silver mast, gloves of the skin of a fish, shoes of the skin of a bird.
The woman who's speaking (or man, of course) is not rich: "it is I would be better to you than a high, proud, spendthrift lady". Not only would s/he milk the cow, but also - again suggesting that he's living as a woodkerne - "I would bring help to you; and if you were hard pressed, I would strike a blow for you".