UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 04:39 AM

I've forgotten what the question was!

:D

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 08:48 AM

the answer was 42 whatever it was

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

Jim Bainbridge makes an interesting point. I have raved on about the Kinks ad nauseam to anyone who'd listen, particularly American friends. To my mind the most English of bands, Ray Davies' lyrics capture the time and the mood which I remember so well. As you say, singing in an English accent helps, and to Jim's list I'd add the song 'Victoria' ...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:55 AM

" I have posted links to me performing in this thread and you confirm that it is folk music"
Not if it's buried in evenings full of songs that have no identity to what you have sung
The clubs I was involved with were grounded in folk styles - the majority of songs were traditional, the rest were overwhelmingly similar in style and objective
I go to a Classical concert to hear classical and classically based music - the same with Jazz, C and W, hip-hop, - any genre you care to name
I ask again - why should folk be any different ?
I quite enjoyed the frothiness of The Kinks back in the day, (I quite liked Buddy Holly and Rickie nelson and some of the other outpourings of the Music Industry) but "when I became a man I put aside foolish things" as they say
SFA to do with the slices of cultural history ot human drama that the fokk songs are
I think the fact that The KInks have been raised as likely candidates for today's folk scene makes my point far better than i can
I can just see the thousands of today's youth filling the folkk lubs to listen to their songs - are you people puling my chain !!!
Jim Carrollo

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:43 AM

"The clubs I was involved with were grounded in folk styles - the majority of songs were traditional, the rest were overwhelmingly similar in style and objective". So what are "the rest" to be called, if not "folk"?

That was exactly my point, that "folk" as presented in the folk clubs goes beyond traditional song and is a matter of style rather than origin. The point where modern songs performed in that style cease to be "similar in style and objective" to traditional songs is always going to be blurred, and individual opinions on where the line should fall will inevitably differ.

Folk clubs are first and foremost places of entertainment rather than scholarship - whilst an understanding of folk tradition and folk process can add to one's enjoyment (which can be said of any form of music) it is not essential in order to enjoy it. For many people, what attracts them to folk music in the first place is how it sounds and what it says, if that leads them to an understanding of its roots then so much the better.

I was not suggesting that the Kinks' "Lola" is by its nature a folksong (although it tells a story), what I was saying is that Swan Arcade's performance in a folk style made it suitable for a folk club. In the same way, Britten's treatment of "Foggy Dew" and Pears' singing style took outside the scope of folk clubs, although it cannot alter the fact that the original is folksong.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

Well Jim, put me down as enjoying the Kinks' 'frothiness' and to never having become a man and therefore to not having 'put aside foolish things'. I don't suggest their songs are candidates for folk songs, but just like McColl's 'Dirty Old Town' they're bloody good. Or am I straying from the discussion...yes, probably...

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Swan Arcade - Lola

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:16 AM

"Well Jim, put me down as enjoying the Kinks'"
Fine - but personal taste has nothing do do with discussion other than to underline the craziness of the 'anything goes policy now adopted by many here
I didn't introduce them to this discussion
Neither did I ever describe Dirty old Town aS A FOLK SONG - Ewas was first in the queue to insit it wasn't
"as presented in the folk clubs goes beyond traditional song and is a matter of style rather than origin. "

My point exactly - from day one, but all the clubs I was part of had their feet firmly set on the real thing


I met her in a club down in North Soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry cola
C-O-L-A cola
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance
I asked her name and in a dark brown voice she said, "Lola"
L-O-L-A Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola

Well, I'm not the world's most physical guy
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walk like a woman and talk like a man
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola

Well, we drank champagne and danced all night
Under electric candlelight
She picked me up and sat me on her knee
And said, "Little boy won't you come home with me?"
Well, I'm not the world's most passionate guy
But when I looked in her eyes
Well, I almost fell for my Lola
Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola lo lo lo lo Lola lo lo lo lo Lola

I pushed her away, I walked to the door
I fell to the floor, I got down on my knees
I looked at her, and she at me
Well that's the way that I want it to stay
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola
Lo lo lo lo Lola

Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
It's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world
Except for Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well I left home just a week before
And I've never ever kissed a woman before
But Lola smiled and took me by the hand
And said, "Little boy, gonna make you a man"
Well I'm not the world's most masculine man
But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man
And so is Lola

Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola...

Very folky, I'm sure
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:17 AM

Maybe the tedious repetition was used for hauling up the mainsheet
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:31 AM

Sortry - forgot to add "for crying out loud"
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 06:54 AM

I suppose Lola tells a story of a time and place and a cultural milieu
It tells a remarkable story of how gay love became the love that dared speak its name in a country where it had once been punishable by death.
Pretty much as little Armstrong or one of those related songs, where the lord of the manor could do what he wants.

And yes. young people do enjoy finding songs and music the radio has stopped playing on their stations. Its like that business of hackneyed folksongs. Since they don't do programmes like Singing Together - young people (many of them) don't know the staples of English and American folksong.

You've got an agenda, Jim. Fair enough. So have the people running folk clubs. Why argue. We're all on the side of the angels.

Nobody's running a club for serial murderers. I don't think.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:01 AM

"You've got an agenda, Jim"
No al - I've got a definition - where's yours
This gets more nonsensical as it progresses

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 07:07 AM

the way A
Most certainly have an agenda - to hel sort of the wheat from the crap and help prevent folk music from disappearing down the plughole of indifference and antipathy
I argue because I care what happens to olk music
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:11 AM

How is it ever going to disappear?

Its there in the museums, on the internet, on cd, in archives, in folk clubs, university courses, dull as fuck programmes on BBC4 . and BBC Alba, digital radio stations, folk festivals, summer schools......

Like jazz. Its context will change. i don't suppose theres too many Jelly Roll Mortons playing piano in sporting houses. But thats how it is.

Remember Jurassic Park...Life will find a way!

Perhaps someone will extract the DNA of folksingers and in a million years, they will give us our own theme park and we will rise up and eat people!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:19 AM

Bit spiteful Al - I thought you were above that
Byee - off to find someone else top talk to
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:24 AM

It comes to something when an outsider revivalist corrects a member of the Copper Family about their attitude towarda folk/traditional somgs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 08:56 AM

the man's crackers

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:05 AM

Spiteful....moi?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:07 AM

that was intended as friendly badinage, mon ami!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:09 AM

I wasn't claiming that the song itself was "folky" (whatever that means), although it has a strong narrative which makes social and cultural point which is perhaps even more relevant in today's gender-flexible times than when it was written. The story is perhaps not a million miles from the countless folk songs about unfortunate sailors who were taken advantage of in some low dive, although in most of them the woman was just that.

You are on dangerous ground when you criticise it for repetition, considering how common that is in traditional song. Even the spelling out of the name has parallels in traditional songs ("and Bingo was his name, sir...")

My real point is that Swan Arcade's performance was "folky" in style, and was entirely at home in a folk club and sat perfectly well alongside traditional songs (which they also sang). That's not just my opinion but that of the many folk club and folk festival organisers who booked them, their audiences who enjoyed listening to them, and Fellside (a reputable folk label) who recorded their albums. It's difficult to think what sort of musical venue would have been more appropriate, if not a folk club.

"all the clubs I was part of had their feet firmly set on the real thing" So were the clubs I was part of, including ones which booked Swan Arcade, and so are the clubs I continue to go to.

The folk scene may not be as strong as it used to be, but the picture is not as bad as you paint, and it is still firmly based on traditional music and music which is stylistically similar. It has always been a broad church, and has included a great deal of music which was not to my personal taste but which I've never felt was a threat to the music I do like.

There are plenty of young people involved, Traditional music isn't going to be forgotten.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 09:20 AM

It has no 'strong narrative' Howard - where's the story
Ther characters are unidentified, as is the place, it is a descrip[tion only of emotions
It doesn't sound like a folk song, it belongs to somebody other than 'the folk' and can never the property of anybody but the composer - folk songs are in the public domain
It has no caim whatever oto the folk scene and claiming it dioes has done much to damage the understanding of what folk song really is and perpresnts - 'The Voice of the People'

"that was intended as friendly badinage, mon ami!"
I didn't and don't take being aclled a dinosaur friemdly in any way Al - it happens far too often to be funny
You appear to have joined the club
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Jon Dudley
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:01 AM

Whoops! my enthusiasm for the music of The Kinks overcame common sense...I knew I shouldn't have joined in.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 10:12 AM

I admit my attempts to draw parallels between the text of "Lola" and folk songs were simply being naughty, and my argument for admitting into folk clubs is specifically about Swan Arcade's folk-style performance, I wouldn't admit the Kinks' original version because their style is incompatible with what you expect in a folk club

"folk songs are in the public domain". True for traditional songs, but not for "the rest", which you've agreed were part of the clubs you were involved with. Once you admit modern composed songs it is then a question of taste where you draw the line. If you want to draw it tightly around traditional song and songs which sound just like them that's your prerogative, but many people who take an interest in folk are willing to take a broader view. What they do expect is that the songs are presented in a style which sounds "folky".

What I strongly disagree with is that these somehow present a threat to traditional songs, when my experience is they can sit perfectly well alongside them, as they have done from the early days of the folk revival. When I go to a folk club I don't expect to enjoy everything I hear, but my enjoyment is based far more on the style and quality of the performance than whether it is a traditional or a modern song, despite my tastes leaning strongly towards traditional music and song.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:48 PM

Course we're bleeding dinosaurs.

One of my chief pleasures is bumping into another dinosaur.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

"What I strongly disagree with is that these somehow present a threat to traditional songs, "
Go count the lost clubs and folkies and pout that up against why they left
Not a bad formula for assessing the damage Howard
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 03:59 PM

Jim,
I can't think of a single person from the folkscene, and I must know thousands personally, who has left the folk scene because of some perception of the content. You have been repeatedly told by many people in England who are in the thick of it that the scene has changed from one centred on folk clubs to a whole range of scenarios promoting traditional and contemporary folk music. I have just come from a 3-hour concert in the middle of a big city that was attended by people from 2 weeks old (my nephew, Barney) to my 95-year-old traditional singer mother. The performers gave a wide range of songs mostly traditional, some contemporary, about half unaccompanied. The place was packed out. I'd say less than half the audience were folkies, but that's by the by.
You have definitely been deceived!! Or is it that closed mind of yours?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:17 PM

Al
I'm a stegosaurus? What are you?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 04:49 PM

Al is a Protoceratops(andrewsi) that keeps encountering a raptor(mongoliensis))

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:19 PM

'Ther characters are unidentified, as is the place, it is a descrip[tion only of emotions'

You could say the same about The Unquiet Grave.

Does anyone else remember the one in Going to see the Wild West Show about the Rhinosauras?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Mar 19 - 05:24 PM

Vaguely!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 02:33 AM

Folk clubs close for a number of different reasons, they are very often run by volunteers, they are often in seperate club rooms..in the last 60 years uk society has changed enormously.,the number of tenat owned pubs has fallen many have closed many are now run by managers who only stay on the premises for a relatively short while, this affects the availabilty of rooms, these are contributory factors to the fall in numbers of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 02:53 AM

"I can't think of a single person from the folkscene, and I must know thousands personally, who has left the folk scene because of some perception of the content. "
I can think of around a dozen clubs that closed because of the change of content - eventually hundreds closed, the magazines collapsed, the specialist shops and the labels disappeared closed

There was a major debate on the pages of several magazines, Folk Review being the instigator, covering the content, the poor standards and the general deterioration of the clubs
It stands to sense that people looking for The Flying Cloud and Tifties Annie are not going to settle for The Kinks (that and other such nonsense is what is being argued for as 'folk' here)
The scene didn't dwindle - it bombed.
What has happened in England is appalling - both in the clubs and on the academic front
We know what folk sonh is and, even if we didn't that are plenty of places where we can look
I need no 'closed mind' to state my case - you and others have told me what I can expect from today's folk clubs and it ain't folk in any shape or form

I really never thought I would see a researcher use the term 'folk police' on a discussion on definition of folk song - that is downright disgraceful
We apparently have a self-appointed research team who has taken it on themselves to dismantle over a centuries work and replace it with.... I can only assume, personal taste - nothing else makes sense
Any researcher who has to take out past workers in the field in order to get their own theories accepted are best avoided as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 03:30 AM

Sorry - missed a bit Howard
"simply being naughty"
Whatever your personal intentions Howard, it is fascinating to witness those who agree with your argument sprinting our of the wainscoting - well done you
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 05:59 AM

well, when specifically - did it bomb, in your opinion?

I suppose you could be talking about a period before I joined the folkscene in 1964.

Perhaps it was me that did all the damage, and things were lovely before I turned up. If so, my apologies to all.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:39 AM

"well, when specifically - did it bomb, in your opinion?"
The scene as a whole bombed Al and had been predicted to do so if things didn't improve - they got worse
Your facetious comments neither help the discussion nor do they do much for your own image
I've said what I believe to be the cause;
Ji,

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 06:39 AM

Well, Jim here is the question I posed.

You say "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity". That is the only statement I am referring to. My question is about what makes you think that. I have posted links to me performing in this thread and you confirm that it is folk music. So it does have a distinct identity. I have not noticed any links to other contributors performing and I am not aware of ever having seen them live so I do not know if they sing folk songs or not. How do you know that what they sing does not have a distinct identity?

Your response

Not if it's buried in evenings full of songs that have no identity to what you have sung

Followed by a diatribe about folk clubs you used to go to. You may be answering a question but it certainly is not the one I asked! So I repeat. How do you know that the people on here sing songs with no identity?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM

my image.....oh dear!

I will contact my publicity manager and inform him of your concerns. With any luck they will keep it out of froots and all those radio programmes that play my music constantly and have been such a source of strength in my career.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

discomfort in the nether regions comes to mind re Jim Carroll's views

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 09:56 AM

"discomfort in the nether regions comes to mind re Jim Carroll's views
Very profound, sorry for giving your brain a nudge
"You may be answering a question but it certainly is not the one I asked! "
You may not have likesd the anwer Dave, but answered it was
You have argued for all sorts of music veing valid at folk clubs - what does one of your songs prove other than one folk song was sung that night ?
The fact that you consider my description of the clubs I was used to be a "diatribe" only serves to convoince me that I would have to think very hard before I came out in the pissing rain to visit your club
Why use terms like "diatribe" - not conducive with an exchange of ideas - not unlike our friend with a pain in the arse/brain
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:11 AM

Dave
You keep demanding answers to your questions yet have yet to respond to most of mine
Some time ago I put up a list of things I believe make folk song unique, yo ignored it - I asked again
I also asked how the '54 definition you put up as being your take on folk song fitted in with much of what you claim to come under the 'folk' umbrella
So far oyu have replied to none of this
Be good enough to do so
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:22 AM

Isn't it in the subject line? The nature of booms is that don't last long, that's why they are called booms. How long can the word 'revival' be applied to something?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:30 AM

During the 60's access to folk was vinyl radio, tv and for a few reel to reel. Many contemporary folk artists were around then and the genre had huge exposure on radio and tv compared to today. The medium consisted of artist/e audience with some floor singers, depending on venue. Julie Felix, Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez etc etc. they all performed and the audience was passive. Interaction was maybe the odd chorus and polite applause. There were no hoary hands of the soil hiding in the bogs making transcripts and changing verses wholesale to tell the world about how their bright red combine harvester threw a wobbler halfway thru harvest. The dynamics of traditional folk no longer existed in the folk clubs. The artist performed, the audience watched and listened. End of. I would argue that as the electronic mediums have expanded the need for attending folk clubs has shrunk. From cassette players to walkmans, to mp3s and the internet vastly more material is available for instant download and fairly extensive research can be carried out online for those that have an interest. I wonder to what extent sessions have replaced traditional folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:47 AM

"The nature of booms is that don't last long, "
The folk boom lasted for about 2/3 years, up to the pointgt when the Industry decided they's made there money and moved on elsewhere
When they'd gone the clubs flourished and, free from the demands of the media they began to explore the repertoire and the styles - that lasted for at least another two decades and would have continued had the "anything goes anyhow" moved in - now their bombing
Folk song continues to nbe important but has lost its public face
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 10:52 AM

I suppose you'd have to ask someone who relies on them to earn a crust. I would think most artists in the folk world have to diversify - teaching skills, touring abroad , playing at ceildhs. working as an extra/background artiste in television used to be the province of many folkies in my day.

Guitars have got cheaper, but squeezeboxes have got more expensive (it seems to me). And harmonicas. I bought some as a present recently and they seemed incredibly expensive to me.

I'm only really in contact with one guy doing the folkscene regularly as principal source of revenue. he seems to work regularly enough.

I notice that alot of artists nowadays seem to do concerts in village halls, which I can't remember in the 1960's. Programmes like Artsreach.

as you say - things do change. Perhaps folk music has gone a bit up market from the old folkclub. I suppose the price of petrol made that inevitable. When Peggy and Ewan used to play the clubs for £60, and Tony Capstick cost £35, you could fill a car up with petrol for thirty bob.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:34 AM

"I suppose you'd have to ask someone who relies on them to earn a crust."
Why should I be interested how anybody earns a living - the folk clubs were set up so we could make our own music rather than pay someone to do it for us
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 11:44 AM

the folk clubs were set up so we could make our own music rather than pay someone to do it for us

Not the ones that I went to.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:39 PM

the folk clubs were set up so we could make our own music rather than pay someone to do it for us

How did people make their own music before that - 'traditionally'?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:43 PM

i used to go there to see visiting artists for about ten years, before i considered myself good enough to perform in public. i think maybe it was ar least another two or three years before i actually was good enough to entertain anyone.

i suppose it depends on how seriously one considers oneself as an artist.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:49 PM

"How did people make their own music before that - 'traditionally'?"
At home usually, but it died and we decided to revive it
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

You have argued for all sorts of music veing valid at folk clubs

Give me one example of my having done so, Jim. You keep saying things like that and when challenged, never finding any examples. That is because there are none. I think you are attributing someone else's posts to me. I have only ever said folk music, both traditional and contemporary, is what folk clubs are for. I started a separate thread to see If there was a general consensus of what constitutes a contemporary folk song and it you want to see what is the general view on that feel free to read that thread.

You also said "what people here sing seems to have no distinct identity" and have spectacularly managed to avoid explaining how you came to that conclusion.

As to "Some time ago I put up a list of things I believe make folk song unique, yo ignored it - I asked again". There does not seem to be a question in that. How can I answer it?