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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Phil Edwards Date: 07 Sep 20 - 07:50 AM Good questions all! Most versions seem to have the woman asking to be thrown overboard - it's one of the odd things about this song. Hence my gut feeling that the song was originally about somebody dying in childbirth (although that subject does seem rather strong meat for the broadside trade). As for the 'Jonah' sub-plot, I'm not sure any of the versions of it work. Certainly women on board ship were seen as unlucky, but would a woman - even a woman in labour - be so very unlucky as to jinx the wind? Then again, while there's at least one song where an undiscovered murderer supernaturally brings a ship to a halt, would a thief be bad enough to do the trick - or Baring-Gould's "undutiful daughter"? As for swimming, all that rolling and tumbling suggests a dead or dying body to me, rather than somebody swimming for home. But then there's "she'll never stop swimming till she comes to some harbour", which is another deeply weird line - they're at sea, for heaven's sake. It would only really make sense if the woman was bewitched herself - or, I suppose, if the sea rejected the undutiful daughter... (My favourite bit of the Baring-Gould version is when the sailor asks her, "O why do you swim?" Beats the alternative, would be my answer to that.) When I sing it I always assume the poor woman's lost at sea and the sailor is planning on burying an empty coffin to remember her by - although that's also rather odd, now I spell it out. Either way, I can't bring myself to have him say he's going to bury her. |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Brian Peters Date: 07 Sep 20 - 08:27 AM > Oh no, cried the captain, that never can be, We'd better to lose two lives, than we had to lose many. Why would going back to pick her up risk losing many lives? Because she's a Jonah? Or because the weather has taken a turn for the worse (which the text neglects to mention)? It's quite a strange song as collected in England. When I put my version together I did in the end allow a hint of the supernatural to intrude, although the website where I posted all my ballad lyrics went down a couple of years ago and I have haven't got around to replacing them. |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Steve Gardham Date: 07 Sep 20 - 08:33 AM For me the confused plot and variety of versions are enough evidence to suggest to me a longer piece from the middle of the 18th century, very much like the Bruton Town evolution. Again with that ballad we have lost the early garland it must have appeared on. At least with Bruton Town we have the much longer/earlier American versions. I think the Scottish versions of Bonnie Annie could easily have been rewritten from the English original, but I have no proof. I am almost totally convinced that the original Bramble Briar was written and printed in Bristol; and if not London, I think Bristol is as good a place for BOGW to have originated. Oh for a good collection of 18thc Bristol garlands to surface from somewhere!! |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Brian Peters Date: 07 Sep 20 - 08:33 AM 'Beats the alternative, would be my answer to that.' Very good! |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: The Sandman Date: 09 Sep 20 - 05:27 AM may i ask your opinion of the version Tony Rose sang, was it his own tune? |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Steve Gardham Date: 09 Sep 20 - 06:16 AM 'It's quite a strange song as collected in England.' Indeed, Brian. It does have some of the elements of the Outlandish Knight and I wonder if it was originally a translation of a quite different foreign version of that ballad, or just loosely based on the beginning of a British version. It has logic right up to where she asks to be thrown overboard, so obviously material/motive missing there, and then the mixed up bit about the captain/person pleading for her. Some can be explained in that if the ship is close to a dangerous coast and she is swimming towards land the ship would not be able to follow. Certainly the Jonah aspect and the drawing of lots found in Sc. versions adds logic and this very likely was present in the original. |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Mrrzy Date: 09 Sep 20 - 07:29 PM The Cynthia Gooding version differs slightly... Seeing how that she doth swim, and seeing how she doth swagger / She will never leave off swimming toll she come to some harbor But the Fetch me some of your father's clothes and some of your mother's money part shows up in other songs, no? |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Brian Peters Date: 10 Sep 20 - 04:59 AM > Certainly the Jonah aspect and the drawing of lots found in Sc. versions adds logic and this very likely was present in the original. I tend to agree, especially as we have other ballads with the Jonah theme. Captain Glen goes back a fair way, I think? |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Sep 20 - 12:37 PM Mrzzy, yes, as I mentioned earlier, The Outlandish Knight certainly does 'Go fetch me some of your father's gold, and some of your mother's fee'.... Captain Glen c1770 + Cruel Ship's Carpenter Sir William Gower New York Trader The Man and two Maidens The False-hearted Sailor The Portsmouth Tragedy. As a motif I'm pretty certain it's at least 17thc. |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Sep 20 - 12:45 PM Usually it's father's *clothes* and mother's money, interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Sep 20 - 12:58 PM Here is what I recall from Cynthia Gooding: It’s of a sea captain lived near the sea-side-O And he courted of a lady till she proved by child Oh, it's fetch some of your father’s clothes and some of your mother’s money That I might go onboard of ship with my own dearest honey Now they hadn’t been on beard of ship not six weeks nor better Before she wanted women but could not get any And it's hold your tongue O you silly girl and it's hold your tongue O my honey For we cannot get women for love nor for money He tied a napkin round her head and he tied it round softly And he throwed her right over both she and her baby And it's seeing how that she doth swim and it's seeing how she doth swagger She will never leave off swimming till she come to some harbor Oh she shall have a coffin and the nails shall shine yellow And my love she shall be buried on the banks of green willow |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Sep 20 - 05:00 PM That suggestion I made rather off-hand about it could be a loose translation of something from the continent has sparked further thought. Many of those long ballads printed about 1750 by the Dicey-Marshall dynasty were based on plots from foreign sources. Worth keeping a look out. |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: GeoffLawes Date: 12 Sep 20 - 03:53 AM Tony Rose - On Banks of Green Willow (1976) |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: GeoffLawes Date: 13 Sep 20 - 01:12 PM A more direct link to Tony Rose singing the song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoMMyHB0PT8 |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: DebC Date: 15 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM Whoa! Just discovered this thread and I am chuffed that you like the tune of my version of "Banks...", Phil. Something I tend to do, especially when learning songs is I change the tune without realising it. I actually got the tune from Frankie Armstrong's version and I might have unconsciously tweaked it. "Casting the black bullet" line I first heard from Margaret Christl and I thought that imagery was striking (no pun intended if there is even a pun there) and I kept it. This is a fascinating thread and thanks to all who contributed. Debra Cowan |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: DebC Date: 15 Sep 20 - 03:53 PM Here is the version Phil mentioned: Banks of Green Willow Debra Cowan |
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Subject: RE: Penguin: Banks Of Green Willow From: The Sandman Date: 15 Sep 20 - 04:15 PM well done deb c |
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