Origins: Two Magicians

Subject: ADD Version: The Two Magicians
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 06:16 AM

THE TWO MAGICIANS

O She looked out of the window,
As white as any milk;
But He looked into the window,
As black as any silk.

Hulloa, hulloa, hulloa, hulloa, you coal black smith!
O what is your silly song?
You never shall change my maiden name
That I have kept so long;
I'd rather die a maid, yes, but then she said,
And be buried all in my grave,
Than I'd have such a nasty, husky, dusky, musty, fusky, coal black smith
A maiden I will die.

Then She became a duck,
A duck all on the stream;
And He became a water dog,
And fetched her back again.
Hulloa, &c.

Then She became a hare,
A hare all on the plain;
And He became a greyhound dog,
And fetched her back again.
Hulloa, &c.

Then She became a fly,
A fly all in the air;
And He became a spider,
And fetched her to his lair.
Hulloa, &c.


NP

This does seem a bowdlerised version of The Two Magicians
Having searched for this by both title, and distinctive line. This version appears not to be in the DT
This version is from:
"English Folk-Songs for Schools" (Curwen Edition 6051)
collected and arranged by S Baring Gould, M.A. and Cecil J. Sharp, B.A.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 06:51 AM

I think the origins of this song go right back to the Bronze Age when metal workers (smiths) were believed to imbue the objects they made with magical properties (indeed, the metal itself had special powers). They were also often shamans who, in their travels between the living world and the Otherworld shapeshifted into animal form – especially water birds, dogs, elks etc. Mike Williams' excellent book, 'Prehistoric Belief' gives a good insight into this.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 03:35 PM

Does anyone know of an alternate source for the Bell Duncan set (the Aberdeenshire tune to Twa Magicians printed by Roy Palmer in his Everyman's Book of British Ballads)?

The link posted by the late Malcolm Douglas on 30 Nov 2001 (see above) has long been taken down by the South Riding website.

I'd love to find this tune if there's any way to do it. Can anyone help?

Thanks!

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 04:41 PM

Nigel Parsons: That version makes an appearance (with little harvested for the DT carets - ^^^ - in spite of its not appearing in the DT, for some reason) earlier in this same thread: Subject: ADD: Two Magicians^^^ From: Joe Offer - PM, Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:19 AM as taken from Sharp "One Hundred English Folk Songs", with the only difference being "You have done me no harm" instead of "What is your silly song?".

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 04:55 PM

Bob, according to what Malcolm wrote, "Twa Magicians" midi in the Mudcat collection is the same as he posted on the South Riding site. (The rest of the site still exists, you could also inquire with the folks there at http://www.folk-network.com/.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 05:25 PM

I was speaking recently to some of the people involved in the Carpenter project, and it seems there is the prospect that his material will see the light of day in the forseeable future.

I'm not at home at the moment, but I do have at home a printout from the microfilm in Cecil Sharp House of the Bell Duncan set. If you can't find it anywhere else, Bob, PM me in about a week's time and I'll see what I can do.

The remarkable thing about Bell Duncan's version is, not only that she altered the melody at the point the story moves from intro to actual shape-shifting, but that Carpenter appears to have collected it from her more than once, and on the second occassion both tunes were different. But I'd like to have that corroborated by the Carpenter experts before you take it as gospel.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 05:43 PM

That's exciting news about the Carpenter collection, Brian.

btw, I'm really sorry to be missing your concert tomorrow in Anaheim. I'm now over in that part of the world every other two weeks -- but unfortunately not these two! Am sending my husband, though...

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 09:42 PM

Tell him to say hello. Sorry I won't be meeting you.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 03:31 PM

Becky, hi, thanks for your note. I'm mystified, if the two tunes really are supposed to be the same, for the mudcat "Twa Musicians" tune is the same as the standard set long known to all. My guess is, that wasn't the tune Bell Duncan was singing. Could I be wrong?

Brian, I'm also excited by the news about the Carpenter collection, especially regarding the two versions of the tune. It looks like I will need to take you up on your offer, as my contact at South Riding, while willing to help, implies finding the tune will not be easy. I'll PM you if nothing shows up about a week from now.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 05:16 PM

"The Twa Magicians," as posted by Jim Dixon, is the work of John Wilson (1785-1854) Professor of Moral Philosophy at the University of Edinburgh. It appeared as part of a comic sketch in the very prestigious, very widely read, Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine for Dec., 1828, Number 40 in the long-running series of "Noctes Ambrosianae," by several authors. Wilson's text appears to bowdlerize that published by Peter Buchan in the very same year and reprinted by Child as his sole example. "Maidenhead" becomes "silken snood" and "virgin love."

A few other lines are revised. The Scots "dreel" ("a swift violent motion") given by the drake is also gone.

Wilson and his editors missed the "nail/tail" business because they lived in a pre-Freudian age when, in polite literature, a cigar was *always* a cigar.

FWIW, the character "Timothy Tickler," who sings the song, was based on Wilson's uncle, Robert Sym (1750-1844). Sym was 78 in 1828, probably too old to have learned a new ballad from Buchan. But Wilson most likely thought it was the sort of song that Sym might have taken to in his youth.

Wilson is responsible for James Hogg's cognomen of "The Ettrick Shepherd." The character of that description in "Noctes" is based on Hogg.

Subject: RE: Origins: Two Magicians
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 10:50 PM

There are interesting parallels in Eastern European folk song. The Czech/Moravian song 'Promeny' - changes in English follows a similar story where she becomes a house, a fish to try to escape her suitor.
If/when I get time I'll post the Czech words and a translation - fortunately it is not in an old dialect!