Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 07:15 PM

1951        Doerflinger, William Main. _Shantymen and Shantyboys: Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman_. Macmillan: New York.

Doerflinger collected an independent version from Dick Maitland. Born 1857, NY. Maitland went to sea at age 12 (circa 1869/70).

Johnny Walk Along to Hilo

Oh, wake her, oh, shake her,
Oh, wake that gal with the blue dress on!
Then Johnny walk along to Hilo,
Oh, poor old man!
Oh, I once knew a nigger and his name was Ned,
And he had no hair on the top of his head,

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: stallion
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 07:22 PM

Yup Ron cleaned up the version he heard so as to not offend anyone, including himself as he found, as I, the song in it's unexpurgated form offensive. Guilty as charged m'lud, next.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 07:30 PM

In 1926-27 no less than 4 artists recorded "Johnny Come Down to Hilo". Based on the titles of their other selections, and the fact that it was the only full performance version at the time, they must have all performed Terry's version.

1927        Lloyd, Llewelyn. "FOLK-SONGS OF THE SEA Shanties on the Gramophone." _Gramophone_ (March 1927)

...Vocalion have economised space by getting eight shanties on two ten-inch records, ...The shanties recorded by this company are: Tom's gone to Hilo, Billy Boy, Rio Grande, and Blow the man down (X. 9786); and Shenandoah. Johnny come down to Hilo, A long time ago, and Fire down below (X.9787)...

Parlophone have devoted three ten-inch records to sea shanties, the singers being Kenneth Ellis and a male quartet, while the accompaniment is provided by a string quartet and flute, which proves a pleasant change from the usual pianoforte. ... The first record (E.5583) contains Amsterdam (also known as A-roving) and Shenandoah; the second (E.5584) has The Drunken Sailor, Santy Anna and Lowlands Away (the last two fine tunes, not elsewhere recorded); and the third (E.5585) has Rio Grande, Reuben Ranzo, Blow the man down, and Johnny come down to Hilo....

...Robert Carr and the Seafarers, who sing shanties for the Edison Bell company, impart a welcome touch of vigour to their renderings, which is unfortunately somewhat rare in other recordings... Other shanties recorded by these singers are: Billy Boy, Blow the man down, and Shenandoah (V.F.1159); and Rio Grande, and Johnny come down to Hilo, (V.F.1163)...

...The Aco records are made by John Thorne and a male trio, who sing Haul away Joe, Rio Grande, Shenandoah, and Billy Boy (G-.15824); and The shantyman's song, Can't you dance the polka?, The Drunken Sailor, and Johnny come doun to Hilo (G.15870). ...

Surely this must have had an effect of creating a "standard" version.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 07:44 PM

From the Carpenter collection.

"Shake Her, Wake Her", 1928, contributed by Captain Blue, in Greenock, Scotland

First line: Have you been in Mobile Bay

3 stanzas

"Shake Her, Wake Her", contributed by James Wright, in Leith

First line: I once was rich and had lots of tin

2 stanzas

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:21 PM

Colcord credits Terry as her source.

She gives just the first stanza, and gives no indication that she'd ever heard it at sea.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:31 PM

1961        Hugill, Stan. _Shanties from the Seven Seas: Shipboard Work-Songs from the Great Days of Sail. London_.

Hugill read the preceding works by Terry, Sharp, and Doerflinger. Says that Terry made it popular in schools, so it was well known in Hugill's day. Hugill claims to have known an "old sailor" who sang it as "Johnny, Come Down the Backstay." He states, without support, that the tune was "Irish in origin."

He doesn't give the precise origin of his version. One can analyze it as the then-popular Terry version (either folk-processed or, likely, tweaked at the time of publication to Hugill's idiosyncratic sense of proper prosody/grammar/spelling)...combined with the "Uncle Ned" verse (i.e. offered by Doerflinger) and finished with a floating verse often associated with "Hog-Eye Man." I am sure that it is certainly informed by Hugill's experiences singing the song, however, it is modeled on a base of prior published material.

JOHNNY COME DOWN TO HILO

I niver seed the like since I bin born,

Ooh, a big buck nigger wid his sea boots on,

Oh, Johnny come down to Hilo., Poor ol' man,
Oooh! wake her! Oh, shake her!

Ooh, wake dat gal with the blue dress on,

When Johnny comes down to Hilo., Poor ol' man!

2. I love a little gal acrosst de sea,

She's a big buck nigger ['Badian beauty] and she sez to me,


3. Wuz ye never down in Mobile Bay
,
A-screwin' cotton for a dollar a day?


4. Ooh, there once wuz a nigger an' his name wuz Uncle Ned,
An' he had no yarns on the top o' his head.

5. Did ye ever see the ol' plantation boss
,
An' his long-tailed filly an' his big, black hoss?


6. Oh, go fetch me down me riding cane,
For I'm off to see me sweetheart Jane.

7. Ooh, Sally [Jinny] in the garden, pickin' peas,
An' the hair of her head hangin' down to her knees.

Though one doesn't imagine the tune *necessarily* varying that much, FWIW each of the original version -- Bullen, Short (Sharp), Hatfield, Maitland (Doerflinger) -- have minor variations. Hugill's comes as close as it can come to Terry's -- suggesting again that this popular version was in the air influencing things even before Hugill went to sea.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:32 PM

Thanks for that important info, Lighter.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:00 PM

This does not exhaust every source mentioning "Johnny Come Down to Hilo," but it is enough IMO to draw some reasonable conclusions.

I have not found the chanty mentioned in any 19th century publications. Perhaps there are some journals or newspaper out there that do.

I have presented roughly 5 different collected, published chanty versions, from sailors learning possibly from as early as the very late 1850s and ending in the 1880s. There are certainly a few more collections out there, from the early 20th century, that *mention* this, but I suspect very few if any present additional original/independent versions (i.e. not composites or copies). I'd be happy to see more. To that we may add the 2(+?) Carpenter recordings. The St. Vincent Whaler's version is also there much later, pointing to a ring play game in the Caribbean, but it is hard to assess how that can be connect back to 19th century.

In all events, though the chanty seems to have been well established, relatively speaking (if the extant evidence is any indicator) it was not *so* common. The commercial chanty boom in the 1920s would seem to have made it appear disproportionately well-known.

The original chanty versions collected correspond very little in their solo verses. This is what I expect in the case of chanties. The one correspondence is Bullen's verse and Terry's opening verse about "never seen the like." This could have been a "regulation verse" of sorts (though not "de riguer" if it's not in the others!). It's certainly a common floating verse form from minstrel songs, so there's no particular need to explain it. However, seeing that it is the *only* correspondence, and if one want to be hyper-critical, one could ask whether Bullen influenced Terry. It does seem (based surveying his other items) that Bullen influenced Terry a little, and since Terry "fudged" his forms (he thought they were ideals, therefore didn't have to be transparent about his sources), he might have used it as a model. But no big deal if he didn't.

What we can see is that Terry's presentation, based on WJ Dowdy, had the most profound influence. When Colcord repeated it, then Lomax repeated Colcord...and after Terry's book was institutionalized and recorded by at least 4 artists...and then after Hugill came along and opaquely rehashed the presentation with just the right gloss of "folk process" (?)... it is now a sort of "standard."

Other branches have been created nowadays by, say, the Oscar Brand version (deliberately bawdy) and the Mystic Seaport (sanitized) version.

How the chanty may have emerged (if it did) from the African-American folk song is still very unclear to me. Was minstrelsy a mediating factor? What are the minstrel versions -- not contain similar floating verses, but which might contain the core phrases of "johnny come down"/"shake her, wake her"?

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:54 PM

The dates (1850s) are pretty much the same for both the plantation work songs and the minstrel songs that seem to have contributed lines to the chantey.
The work songs and chanteys are the typical call and response (chorus) required for joint effort, and for some dance forms (also represented in the early examples presented). All three seem to have contributed; I would 'vote' for the minstrel shows (popular with sailors on the shore) as the main source, but much more needs to be searched out with regard to all three forms.

I also wonder what exposure sailors would have had with plantations. African-Americans working either as slaves or freedmen in port cities would have different songs from those on the plantations.

Not the best or best known chantey by any means, but an interesting one. 'Tis a puzzlement.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:25 AM

Gibb, I made this note a few years ago. No history of "Johnny, Come Down to Hilo" is complete without it:


General Wilhelm Burgdorf (1895-1945) was Chief of Personnel of the Wehrmacht at the time of his suicide in the Hitler bunker. Even one of his colleagues later described him as a "drunken swine." Burgdorf, who reportedly "had a big chest and a barrel-organ voice," wiled away his last hours drinking and singing in German and English. According to another survivor, "He kept singing a song, 'Johnny come down to Hilo, poor old man,' something like that....Rather catchy sailor's tune, if you like that sort of thing."

See James P. O'Donnell, _The Bunker_ [Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1978], p. 341-42.

If any comment is conceivable, Burgdorf may have picked up the song from a recording of (presumably) Terry's version.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:56 AM

Lighter, your incredibly comprehensive research is always downright amazing. I guess there's just no accounting for taste when it comes to chanties. What a fine perspectival corrective aid!

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:31 PM

as a boy living in denver co. in the 1950's i remember singing this song'60 years later it is still stuck in my head,now at last i know where it came from, the only thing of the song i remember singing was"johnny come to high low said the old poor man,and shake her,and break her,said the old poor man" anyway thats what i remember. its nice to at last know the name of the song and orgins.thanks.

Subject: ADD Version: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 04:32 AM

Many of the versions of this song are horribly racist, or else they sound like racist lyrics that were sanitized. I found a version of this song that apparently came from African-American social reformer Frederick Douglass (1818-1895). I think they sound pretty good. What think ye? It's a difficult question. I don't want to sanitize songs, but neither do I want to sing lyrics that are racist or sexist.
Source: http://leighfought.blogspot.com/2011/08/douglass-and-johnny-come-down-to-hilo.html

JOHNNY COME DOWN TO HILO

Never seen the like since I been born
An Arkansas farmer with his sea boots on
Johnny come down to Hilo, poor old man
Wake her, shake her
Wake that gal with the blue dress on
Johnny come down to Hilo, poor old man

I got gal across the sea
She's a 'Badian beauty and she says to me…
Johnny come down to Hilo, poor old man
Wake her...

Sally's in the garden picking peas
The hair on her head hanging down to her knees
Johnny come down to Hilo, poor old man
Wake her...

My wife she died in Tennessee
And they sent her jawbone back to me
Johnny come down to Hilo, poor old man
Wake her...

I put that jawbone on the fence
And I ain't heard nothing but the jawbone since
Johnny come down to Hilo, poor old man
Wake her...

So hand me down my riding cane
I'm off to see Ms. Sarah Jane
Johnny come down to Hilo, poor old man
Wake her...

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 05:05 AM

Outrageously misogynist!

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 05:28 AM

... and "Arkansas farmer with his seaboots on" is a priceless bit of nonsensical PC fudge! I have cited it on the 'dilemma' thread as an example of the dangers of messing about with a lyric, for ideological or such motivations.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Mysha
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 05:59 AM

Hi,

"Never seen the like since I been born
An Arkansas farmer with his sea boots on"

With his hogeye!
An Arkansas Farmer with his hogeye!
Steady on a jig with a hogeye!
Oh, she wants the hogeye man!

?

Yes, it would seem there are some relations between the two songs. (-:

Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 06:16 AM

Never seen the like since I been born
An Arkansas farmer with his sea boots on

Could that not just be an expression saying it is not possible? Bit like the cow reap the corn or a flea heave a tree?

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 06:22 AM

Ah - Gotcha. Seen the 'original'. I think the new one makes as much sense and is less offensive.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 06:52 AM

According to the blog, the only lines Douglass sang were:

Oh John Low! Johnny went down the hi-lo!
Oh John Low! Johnny went down the hi-lo!
Went down the hi-lo to get some gin,
Johnny went down the hi lo!
Drank so much he tumbled in,
Johnnie went down the hi-lo!


The other words posted are the current PC version, with "Arkansas farmer" substituted for the traditional...er, something else.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Mysha
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 08:25 AM

Hi again (Why does work always have to interfere with the more important things in life),

"Sally's in the garden shelling peas" is in Hogeye Man as well. Knowing the Hogeye versions of these verses, they sure sound "modified" to me, here.

But more in general, Joe: Down to Hilo is a shanty of the type that would collect verses, I guess to fit the length of the work. If there was an original that made sense, then likely nobody alive knows it. So, uses Hilo verses that you like, other verses you pick from other songs, new verses that you think up on the spot or that you thought up to match the occasion.

Think of it: These shanties were sung under monotonous work: Would the sailors or other workers prefer to hear the same old verses time and again? Or would they want the lead to think of something new each time? Man, as a variation throw in the first lines of The Wild Rover, on Hilo melody, if you can. That, in my opinion, was what such shanties were about: Inventing stuff, changing stuff around.


Never seen the like since I been born
An Arkansas farmer with his flippers on

Sally's in the garden and says I
Her kisses are sweeter than apple pie.

I tell you now, all around her hat,
She wears a green ribbon, how about that?

My wife she died in some Texan town
And to me they sent her jawbone down

I put that jawbone on the fence
And it's been y'all-ing ever since

The <shipsname>'s so bad, I'll be ***
If she don't soon go to the promised land.

So hand me down *** *** [well-earned] pay,
In <port-name> I'll find some *** [dame] today.


Getting the lyrics "right" is not what it's about. It's probably more about getting them "wrong". It's: Don't make them work, make them laugh.

@ € 0.02

Bye,
                                                               Mysha

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 08:50 AM

Makes sense to me, Mysha. When I played various roles in a Pace Egg play I always tried to introduce a bit of variety. Occasionally on purpose... :-)

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 10:23 AM

At school in the 1950s in West Sussex, England, we often sang this song, and,since PC hadn't been invented , we always sang "big buck nigger" etc.. I suppose it would be a serious offence today ,but that's life in the modern world, I guess.Of course, we "whites" continue to be abused by all and sundry, and are called "white trash" and "honkys" , but we are above complaining and have more important things to worry about , to be honest !!

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 10:40 AM

I remember in the 1940s, my school choir (Hendon County School) singing some songs on the old BBC Radio Home Service schools programme. The "Big Buck Nigger" version was one of them, and nobody then thought anything of it. I recall too an argument with Sandy Paton when he was here in 1958: he asserted that the word "nigger" could not occur in any true folksong; so I sang him that stanza, and Redd Sullivan who was with us, himself an experienced professional Merchant Seaman, assured Sandy that that was indeed what seamen sang.

PC rewriting of history seems to me to have its dangers -- for scholarship as well as for morality.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 12:01 PM

I guess earlier parts of this thread have been somewhat forgotten.

While today viewed as an important item in the deepwater sailor chanty genre, this song does not appear quite so prominently in the historical record of that trade. Terry's publication of a version in the 1920s, and subsequent recordings and other renditions by enthusiasts based off of that, seems to have increased its stock.

The "John comes down the hollow" appears to be likely a pre-Emancipation plantation song of African-American culture. Thus it is one of many songs of this provenance that came to be adopted and/or adapted by non-Black seamen. I personally am more interested in discovering exactly how that happened (among the several possibilities that need not be stated now). My hunch is that in the case of this particular item, minstrel music had some role in helping to *mediate* it, even though the song does not originate with minstrels. But that's another story.

There is nothing inherently racist about it —though I suppose one could add racist lyrics to any song, on a whim.

The couplet pattern that begins "I never seen the like since I was born" looks to have been a stock pattern in African-American song. The rhyme varies.

Michael, I have no idea what a "true folksong" is, but Black Americans sang the word "nigga" often enough in the 19th century, just as many Black people sing it today in certain genres. The meaning or usage in those cases of the past seems to me more or less the same as in the present, and this is one reason that when we see that word in chanty-type songs we have good reason to suspect the song either has an African-American origin or a minstrel ( = representation of "Blackness") origin. And it's for that reason that removal of such language presents a paradox: while removing offense to Black people, it also removes evidence of Black people's "ownership."

Subject: ADD Version: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 01:32 PM

Here's a version from Bob Zentz that I kinda like, but they don't quite work for me. I'm looking for verses that are more commonly sung.

Johnny, Come Down To Hilo

From Shipmates (2012)

Traditional, combined with the lyrics of "The Gal With The Blue Dress"

 

1. I never seed the like since I bin born, a big buck sailor with his sea boots on, oh

     Johnny, come down to Hi-lo, poor old man!

I love a little gal acrosst the sea, with a blue dress on and she says to me (Johnny, etc.)

     Wake her! (wake her!) Shake her! (shake her!) Wake that gal with the blue dress on oh
     Johnny, come down to Hi-lo Poor old man!

2.  This gal she did look good to me, cos I had been ten months at sea (Johnny, etc.)
Roust her and shake her is the cry, the bloody ol' topmast sheet is dry (Johnny, etc.)  (chorus)

3.  A big wind comes from the west-nor-west, this gal she ain't gonner get no rest (Johnny, etc.)
Shake 'er bullies, oh, helm's a-lee, she'll get washed out wi' a big green sea (Johnny, etc.)  (chorus)

4.  Her oilskins they are all in pawn, it's cold and drafty round Cape Horn (Johnny, etc.)
So roust her up from down below, and haul her away for your Uncle Joe (Johnny, etc.)  (chorus)

5.  This gal, she is a high-born lass, a high-born lass in a flash blue dress (Johnny, etc.)
So roust her up, be quick I say, and make yer port and take yer pay (Johnny, etc.)  (chorus)

Subject: Dilemma: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 01:38 PM

The "Arkansas Farmer" lyrics were what was proposed for the upcoming Rise Again songbook. My first reaction, like many of those above, was outrage at the blatant attempt at political correctness. There's no way we can include "big buck nigger" in a songbook that may be used in the US outside the folk community, so we have to come up with some alternative.

But I found several recordings, mostly by younger chantey singers, that used the "Arkansas farmer" verse. Then I found the Frederick Douglass page, and misread the "Arkansas Farmer" lyrics as having come from Douglass (give me a break, it was 3 AM). So then I got a little more open to the farmer verse, but still questioning. That's why I'm asking,

Yes, Gibb, I read the entire thread above, and Doerflinger, and Hugill, and Lomax (these books don't have much). And I listened to maybe twenty recordings....and I still haven't come up with what I need - something that's reasonably authentic, fun to sing, and that can be sung in an American elementary school without the singer getting arrested.

I kinda like the one verse Gibb posted above:

I nebber seen de like, Since I ben born
When a 'Merican man wid de sea boots on
Says Johnny come down to Hilo.
Poor old man!
Oh! wake her! Oh! Shake her
Oh wake dat gal wid der blue dress on,
When Johnny comes down to Hilo!
Poor old man!

Bob Zentz has "big buck sailor with his sea boots on," which clearly sanitized, but not (I think) blatantly so.

I guess I've most often heard this song sung by Ken Schatz. Most likely, I first heard the song at the FSGW Getaway in 1999, with Ken singing. There's a recording of Ken singing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3OaTC43BHs&feature=youtu.be.

I wish I could understand all the verses he's singing.

So, here's my working copy, subject to change per the advice of y'all:

Johnny Come Down to Hilo

Never seen the like since I been born
A big buck sailor with his sea boots on
Johnny come down to Hilo / Poor old man
D - - - / - - - A / D - GD D / D A D -
Wake her, shake her
Wake that gal with the blue dress on / Johnny come down...

I got a gal across the sea
She's a 'Badian beauty & she says to me / Johnny…

Sally's in the garden picking peas
The hair on her head hanging down to her knees…

My wife she died in Tennessee
And they sent her jawbone back to me…

I put that jawbone on the fence
And I ain't heard nothing but the jawbone since…

Hilo girls they dress so fine
They ain't got Sunday [supposed to be "Jesus"] on their mind…

She's a Down East gal with a Down East smile
And a dollar a time is well worth-while...

So hand me down my riding cane
I'm off to see Miss Sarah Jane…

Sorry about the chords. A few of us volunteers questioned the inclusion of chords on songs meant to be sung a cappella. Editor Peter Blood thinks the chords help people get an idea what the song is supposed to sound like, so the chords stay.

So, can we jointly come up with lyrics that will work for this purpose?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Mysha
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 03:47 PM

Hi Joe,

OK, with that purpose stated I can see why you would want a set of somewhat standard verses.

At that link Ken Schatz has the Arkansas farmer:

I've never seen the like since I been born
Of an Arkansas farmer with sea boots on

Who's been here since I've been gone
That pretty little gal with the blue dress on

She's a down-east gal with a down-east style
For a dollar a time and it's all worthwhile

Them down-east gals they dress so fine
They ain't got Jesus on their mind.

I don't care where in the world I go
I can't get away from the calico

My wife died in Tennessee
They sent her jawbone back to me…

Slung that jawbone on the fence
And I ain't heard nothing but the jawbone since…

Hand me down my riding cane
I'm going to see my Sarah Jane…


No unknown verses in it. He does string three verses together by using wording that makes the latter two each refer back to the previous one.

Other than that, I get the impression that the Richmond Tavernacle singer next to him is a bit uneasy about the verse with "Jesus" in it.

But which verses work in general? I guess: Collect the verses from the various strains and pick some moderate ones. Somebody is going to come along and be insulted, no matter which you pick, but you could probably avoid some of the troubles by prudent selection, should you want to.

Bye
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 04:02 PM

Hi, Mysha - I think that's Flawn Williams who's next to Ken, more-or-less in the center of the screen most of the time. I don't know Flawn very well, but I think he is not one likely to be rattled by such things. Still, it's not a verse I would feel comfortable singing in most situations.

By the way, Flawn leads one heck of a wonderful doo-wop session when he gets the chance.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Mysha
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 05:02 PM

Hi,

Yeah, when watching part of another tube from the series I realised the whole foreground were soloists and they unmentioned sing along on each-other's songs. If you don't agree with my interpretation there, than just ignore it; my computer can't handle the definition of today's tubes very well, so things often look slightly different for me.

"Sunday" works wonderful, both for the connection with church and with Sunday dress. Of course, somebody is going to be insulted by the removal of the LORD from the song.


Well, you'd need a version of the "the likes" verse to start the song. Apart from Arkansas and Nword, we have:
- A great big sailor with his sea boots on (Lori Archer Sutherland)
- There's a pretty gal asleep with a blue dress on (Snuffy)
- Sheep in the meadow, cows in the corn. (Holler Jimmy Hiley Ho)

None of them great alternatives, I'd say. Unless anyone knows other alternatives, I'd say it's pretty much Arkansas or burst.

Bye,
                                                               Mysha

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 05:17 PM

> For a dollar a time and it's all worthwhile

Shouldn't the line's flagrant approval of the commercialization of the female body offend people?

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 05:18 PM

I have a very early Peggy Seeger record - one of the earliest 1950s vinyl 33s - which includes a "Children's medley""; one little bit of which goes

Jawbone walk and jawbone talk
Jawbone eat with a knife and fork
I left my jawbone at the corner of the fence
And I have not seen my jawbone since

I have always regarded that as simply a bit of somewhat puzzling nonsense verse (which indeed it is: what means "jawbone"!?). But now I can at least see, from above bits about the wife's jawbone being sent to the narrator, whence it has floated as a sort of corrupt discrete fragment.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: GUEST,CW
Date: 09 Mar 15 - 05:50 PM

The man standing next to Ken in the Richmondtown video is Bob Conroy, not Flawn Williams. I doubt he was too discomfited by the Jesus verse—I've certainly heard him sing it before.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 01:52 AM

Aw, CW, I shoulda known, but I think it's been 15 years since Bob and Dan Milner did a concert at my house in Sacramento, and I haven't seen him since. I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

Lighter, there's no doubt that this and many other sea songs are sexist. Most of us are able to take that in stride and understand that these are historical songs. And I suppose we all like to get a little naughty at times, so we sing songs that aren't politically correct - I think that's a healthy thing. But at least in the U.S., the line gets drawn at "nigger." I think the sensitivity to this one word is a bit extreme, but it's a reality.

As for the "Jesus" verse, it's not a deal-breaker, but I think I'm going to leave it out instead of letting the editor put They ain't got Sunday on their mind. We're short of space, so he's likely to cut verses anyhow.

So, here's what I have. Anything I should change, exclude, or include in the version I submit to the songbook?

Johnny Come Down to Hilo

Never seen the like since I been born
A big buck sailor with his sea boots on
Johnny come down to Hilo / Poor old man
D - - - / - - - A / D - GD D / D A D -
Wake her, shake her
Wake that gal with the blue dress on / Johnny come down...

I got a gal across the sea
She's a 'Badian beauty & she says to me / Johnny…

Sally's in the garden picking peas
The hair on her head hanging down to her knees…

My wife she died in Tennessee
And they sent her jawbone back to me…

I put that jawbone on the fence
And I ain't heard nothing but the jawbone since…

She's a Down East gal with a Down East smile
And a dollar a time is well worth-while...

So hand me down my riding cane
I'm off to see Miss Sarah Jane…

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 02:38 AM

Joe, I sympathize with your dilemma!
For what it's worth, my remarks were not intended to address your dilemma (which I wasn't aware of at the time), but rather more the fact that the historical versions had been mostly posted yet we were getting hung up on Revival version wordings--fine in their own right but evidence of nothing historical. Sorry about that.

I would add, idly:
- "big buck sailor" doesn't make much sense to me, since the "big buck" part is part of the phrase "big buck nigga"
- "Arkansas farmer", while not historical, is in the spirit of the couplet. For example, another rendition of this couplet is "Never seen the like since I been born, nigga on the ice and a hoeing up corn," i.e the thing seen is remarkable/unusual/incongruous.

Incidentally, in at least two reports of African-American song that I know of, the line is, "big buck n* with a derby on," i.e the "sea boots" may have been an extrapolation by mariners.

As to the dilemma:
When performing publicly with young people, SCRIPTED, I have used the wording published by Bullen, re-quoted by Joe Offer.
http://youtu.be/2JOXW0o5xlI?t=8m23s
Otherwise, I'd go with a different line entirely. Or ad lib : [singling out a person present] "…[Name] with [item of clothing] on"

I'm likely one of very few that feels so…this is one of those "my 2 cents" remarks...but I can hardly tolerate the word "sailor" as a blatant substitute for "nigga." To me, it speaks to a re-imagining of the genre that, on principle, I am against. As I opined earlier, the effort to avoid offense to a people ends up, in the long run, erasing said people from the face of the genre-- a worse offense IMO.

Besides, you can often tell an "inauthentic" (ahistorical) chanty when it sings too much about ocean and sailor stuff!

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Mysha
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 02:56 AM

Hi Joe,

Well, the reason I didn't see the sailor as a good alternative is that I don't get why he is such a sight to see with his sea boots on.

Other than that: I think Ken Schatz has a point when he moves up the dollar a time verse to the other gal verses, to give some context for "She". And, I'd go with Who's been here there, rather than Sally. But then, I know Sally as a Hogeye verse, and don't know Who's been here that way. Still, I prefer the link with the chorus it has.

Ah, and in the notes you'll probably have to spell out "'Badian" in full. What are you going to do with the pace? Popular pace or workable pace?

Bye
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 04:19 AM

The N word is not acceptable here either Joe, so as you say an alternative is needed.
Perhaps a black singer could get away with it?

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 15 - 07:11 AM

> "big buck sailor" doesn't make much sense to me,

Gibb, he could be a really rich sailor. Or a deer sailor in sea-boots. That *would* be remarkable.

Otherwise I pretty much agree with you.

Subject: RE: Origin: Johnny Come Down to Hilo
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM

Charles R. Tuttle, Our North Land (Toronto, 1885):

"On the arrival of the vessel, the whale is made fast to her side, tail forward, so that the large open mouth will not fill with water in case of the advance of the ship, and the work of sculping is begun. This is done under the superintendence of an official called 'the Inspectioneer.' Eight or ten men are lowered upon the body of the whale, with nails or brads in the soles of their boots, like creepers, in order that they may not slip off his round form; and with long knives, well sharpened for the purpose, commence the work of removing the blubber, or fat, which is generally eighteen inches thick over the whole carcase. The men usually indulge their vocal powers, during this work, in some such enlivening pieces as:--

        'O, waken her, O, shake her,
        O, shake that girl with a blue dress on ;
        My Johnny come down in a high low.'

Or the following, which is a particular favourite with whalers:--

        'Weigh, ha, blow the man down,
        Blow the man down to New York town.
        Give me some time to blow the man down.'

        "The blubber is hoisted to the deck by means of block and tackle and stored away in the bunkers."