Folk sushhhhing folk

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 08:33 AM

Pierre, you have put your point across several times during this thread, but I still do not understand why you thought it was "uncalled for" for the performer to ask you to be quiet. You appear to believe that you have more right to converse (however quietly) than the musician has to perform or the rest of the audience to listen.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:15 AM

Hi folks
In regards to being a member of my local club I have often played in the past on stage during PA and have had (with out personal request) people. join in on Harps and others join in on various over instruments on one occasion one chap crept on stage behind me and joined in on Harp. followed by another chap on guitar. Before I knew it I had become a three piece ?
BUT
I think if I stopped playing and has charming to the last Jenny Brampton puts it, in an above thread,


told them all" to sit down and (I quote) shut the F..K up I would probably lose a lot of very good friends and shock a lot of the elders who attend the club to boot and if there were any new guests sitting in on the night I doubt they would return.

IIn regards to starting has a solo performer and ending up has a three piece I must admit it did come has a wee bit of a shock but I carried on regardless and I admit I throughly ENJOYED THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE. and so did those seated who saw all this happen and showed it by giving us a riotous round of applause.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:53 AM

I did not find it uncalled for Howard Re rights or anything else.
I am not very good at writing re explaining myself. let me explain a bit more about this parlava

I passed a compliment on to a neighbor in a whisper sitting beside me regarding the performer in question,

I said I quote.
"I like this chap he does this song really well . nothing more.

Clearly he did not hear the compliment or he wouldn't have told me to be quiet .
Thank you now be quiet. Maybe.

I approached the chap at the end of the evening and apologized and he said I do not wish Pierre to fall out with you over it. Thats it finished.

I did not go up to him and threaten to stick his guitar so far up his arse he would need a to
stick his fingers down his throat to tune it.. no more then I would be abusive to any one else.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 10:26 AM

Pierre, I was quoting your post 31 Oct 09 - 09:23 PM when you said "I got cross because I thought that was uncalled for"

Does it matter that what you were saying was complimentary? Surely the point is that, to quote you again, your behaviour got the musician "rattled" and put him off his performance. Perhaps a more experienced performer would have been less likely to be distracted - again that isn't the point.

The fact is that your behaviour was - no doubt unintentionally - disrespectful to the performer and the audience. You then make matters worse by criticising the performer for allowing himself to be put off by you, and for telling you to be quiet.

So far as the performer is concerned, he told you the matter is over with. So why bring it up here?

The fact is, you were in the wrong. Please accept that, and learn from it.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:30 AM

micahelr - you absolutely were NOT rude. That young couple obviously needed some education about controlling their tot in a situation where its behaviour was disturbing others. Parents who think that everyone within earshot of their screaming children, should just suffer it, are themselves rude and insensitive.

Back to chatter at sing around sessions and open mic nights. Some sing a rounds are less structured than others, especially if they are one offs and attended by folks who have not seen each other in several months.

An open mic session is more formal. It is scary as hell to get up in front of a group. Acoustics can wreak havoc on your nerves, sense of audio proportion, etc. So it is best if people refrain from talking.

As for non participating, pub patrons talking over performances. It is a very difficult call for the session organiser or performer because the pub landlord/lady might not appreciate it if you offend paying patrons.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:42 AM

Pierre, you have put your point across several times during this thread, but I still do not understand why you thought it was "uncalled for" for the performer to ask you to be quiet. You appear to believe that you have more right to converse (however quietly) than the musician has to perform or the rest of the audience to listen.

If someone wants to do his thing on stage, he better get used to people whispering the odd sentence to eachother. In Pierre's account of events I didn't spot anything that would warrant the reaction of the musician. what does he think he is, a schoolteacher calling a group of ten year olds to order?

Mind you extended loud conversation are a different matter depending of the setting. Your man should come out and play in Ireland, that will teach him.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Mick Woods
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:04 PM

I was sittimg next to Pete on the night. When the performr started the intro to his piece - A Kirsty McColl song Pierre turned his head toward me and whispered in the quietest of tones "I love this song" That was when the performer stopped - totally uncalled for. Incidently there are powered foldback monitors at the venue which is a rugby club and bar not a concert hall. The performer in question is a school teacher and he tends to address his audience as if it is a school assembly which I find quite entertaining.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM

Well, I got the schoolteacher bit right anyway.

Seriously, playing for people is a mutual give and take and a demand for absolute attention seems rather pompous to me.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 01:26 PM

I can see why Perre might have been taken aback. But I can't see he felt cross about it.

"I approached the chap at the end of the evening and apologized... I did not go up to him and threaten to stick his guitar so far up his arse he would need a to lick his fingers down his throat to tune it"

Putting it that way seems to suggest that the apology might not all that authentic.

"Sushing at my local folk club has got completely out of hand everyones doing it And that suggests that most people in the club prefer not to have others rabbiting during the singing.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Santa
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 01:43 PM

No-one has suggested absolute attention, for the fairly obvious reason that you aren't going to get it. All you are being asked to do is keep quiet whilst others are performing. If you aren't exactly absorbed or enamoured, study the level of beer in your pint or daydream about whatever turns you on. Just shut it!

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 02:11 PM

Is there such a thing as an "audience Nazi?" Or an "I'm performing and I demand absolute silence and attention from the audience!" Nazi?

T'would seem there are a few about.

Scene: 1962. A coffeehouse in Seattle called "The Place Next Door." I was the first singer to sing there when it first opened, and many others had sung there since. Some of us had learned that Jesse Fuller would be available, and we managed to talk the owner of "The Place" into hiring him for two weeks.

One evening when Jesse was singing, I was there with a friend, who, in turn, had brought a date. My friend's date was not familiar with folk music, and as we sat there listening, she leaned close to me and whispered, "What is his name?" I whispered back, "Jesse Fuller." That was the total conversation at our table until Jesse finished the set.

Some guy at an adjoining table turned to my friend and said, "Your two friends were talking so much I could hardly hear Jesse sing!"

A total of six words, all whispered. I'm surprised this guy at the next table even heard us. It occurred to me that had I and my confreres not managed to talk the owner into booking Jesse, this gink wouldn't have heard him at all!

He must have had a very large bug up his butt!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 02:13 PM

Just shut it

So Pierre was indeed out of line whispering 'I like that song' ?

For fecksake, grow up, music won't thrive in that sort of enforced reverence.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM

The performer may have been oversensitive to disturbances. But if you are a nervous or inexperienced performer attempting something demanding then it is very easy to be "rattled" by what to an outsider might seem insignificant distractions. The point is, the man was trying to perform in a concert situation (not a session or singaround) and was entitled to expect the audience not to put him off. Playing in a public bar or a session is different, a performer has to accept that there may be other distractions, but equally he is probably under less close scrutiny and under less pressure than when on a concert stage.

His response may not have been very tactful. Teachers have a tendency to forget when they are dealing with adults. But it seems to me that Pierre is trying to put the blame on the performer for his reaction, rather than accepting that it was his behaviour (which I'm sure was unintentional) which triggered it in the first place.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 02:30 PM

If you're really that precious about what you're doing you best stay at home and play for yourself.

Mind you, as I said before, response to a loud conversation is one thing, jumping on a whispered phrase in the back row is just plain ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: mandotim
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

A bit of chatter is fine in my book. It only becomes a problem when people start having conversations long enough and loud enough to distract the performer and spoil the evening for the rest of the audience. It's always a judgement call about what to do, and performing experience comes into play a lot of the time. There are lots of gentle ways to drop hints, like 'this next song is a very quiet one, so you'll need to listen carefully', and 'can you hear me ok at the back?'. There are less subtle methods, and I'm with Will about using lack of volume. My late brother taught me the trick of gradually playing quieter and quieter during a song, so the noisy individuals stand out even to themselves; this works even better with PA. You can also use 'would you like me to play quieter so you can hear yourselves shouting?', but it pays to know your audience with this one.
I'm lucky in my local pub session though; the landlord is a musician and plays in the session every Monday. Too much rowdiness in a quiet song can get you barred! This goes double for young or inexperienced singers; they get the best of order, and often a bit of help from the 'house band'.
Don't get me started on unofficial shakey egg players...
Tim

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 02:59 PM

I'm guessing that the performer in question is a floor singer rather than a professional. I'd expect a pro to be less easily distracted and more adept at dealing with the situation. On the other hand, I'd also expect an audience to be more attentive, especially if they've paid and come especially to see that guest.

Perhaps as a performer myself I'm biased, but my sympathies are with the performer. It's not "precious" to want to put on a good performance and neither is it precious to get very nervous and on-edge about it. With experience you learn to deal with this, but you need to gain that experience in front of an audience, and even experienced performers will feel it to some extent when trying something difficult.

I think it's the tone of Pierre's reaction to this which has annoyed me. He appears to be unwilling to accept any responsibility for his part in the situation. I can see why Pierre was upset by the manner of the performer's response. However the indisputable fact is that, however unwittingly, he had behaved in a way which distracted the performer. Other performers might not have been affected, but this one was. Rather than blaming the performer for this, in my opinion he should have thought "well, that's me told!" and learned to be more careful of his behaviour in the future - which perhaps he has.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: paula t
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 04:03 PM

The funniest "shushing" experience I've had was while watching Jethro Tull at Cropredy a number of years ago. I hadn't realised how silent the audience was in our area of the crowd ,as a particularly wonderful flute solo was being played. A rather merry guy - who had been steadily and very happily drinking all afternoon- was suddenly overcome with emotion and ,with a tear in his eye, yelled,"Ian Anderson for Prime Minister!" As one , about 1000 people looked his way and chorussed very gently...."shhhhh". Wonderful. No malice, but the point was made.

Oh , by the way...as a teacher I never forget I'm talking to adults when I'm performing.Just needed to get that one off my chest.It rankles a bit when comments like that are made(however justified they might be in some cases!)

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:19 PM

Why did Pierre apologise, if he felt so strongly that there was nothing to apologise about that he stored it up to complain to a global audience?

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:38 PM

[Just imagine prim, self-important people going "shush" in the Blaxhall Ship of old . .]quote.
order was kept, however in the Blaxhall Ship,By Wicketts Richardson.
the Blaxhall Ship was a public house, not a seperate room with an admission charge,so you are not comparing like with like , a different set up altogether.,would you compare The Blaxhall Ship ,to seeing Martin Carthy at an arts centre or a Folk club?
ok,I wasnt there, neither were the majority of the posters and we have not heard the performers version of the events,so really we cant make a proper judgement.
I dont know if the performer was being precious,I wasnt there.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Santa
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 06:00 PM

Talking whilst someone else is performing is bad manners. Any question, or answer, or comment, can wait until the end. Talking whilst someone is performing is you announcing to the world that you are more important than the performer, and more important than the entire audience. It is your comment that has to take priority over everyone else.

As for how short or unimportant the conversation was, who is to start drawing lines on how long a conversation has to be before it is acceptable or a nuisance? Are ten syllables OK, or does it have to be 20 to cross some boundary? How loud is acceptable - 20 decibels, 40 decibels, 80 decibels? The only boundary is being quiet, or not being quiet. Being polite, or not being polite. Being an self-centered arse, or not.

As for whispered asides, I suspect I have been guilty of some myself, in my time. But I'm not proud of it, nor expounding it up as a normal and proper way to behave.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 06:15 PM

Various things here, about general etiquette in concerts, sessions or whatever:
People who think they are casting a quiet aside to their neighbour may well be louder than they think.
Seeing folk muttering to each other while you're singing can be very disconcerting, especially if you'r paranoid enough to think they're talking about you!
Some folk (usually singers) will be very attentive during songs but think it's fine to talk at the tops of their voices over tunes, while tunes-only players will sit and fidget and noodle during songs.
Classical concerts, yes, an entirely differnet ball game but there are still thos who think it's OK to talk all the way through the overture of an opera or musical for example - it's not, it's all part of the total performance.
And mobile phones - none of this "switch to silent" nonsense - switch the buggers OFF or confiscate them! A Christy Moore concert was spoiled for me by the people next to me spending the whole night texting on a flashing bright blue screen (my peripheral vision being better than I thought it was)- silent but still VERY intrusive.
Shushing during festival sessions - now you're on dangerous ground: this happened at one festival I went to while someone was singing at a late night session, when most folk are already well oiled, shall we say. A local female person (definitely not a lady) took very huge umbrage at being told to shush as it was her "effing local, and I come here every effing Setterrday nicht, and you cannae tell ME whit tae dae in MA effing pub": it took 3 strong men to restrain her from punching the shusher, as well as she nearly bust oot o' her bra!

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:16 PM

Hi Howard Jones.
We are all Floor singers at my local club and the chap in question is used to gibber jabber has we all are. In extream cases folk are told to quieten down but I have to put up with it so do others.

I ddid not get cross .Angry with the chap I was somewhat surprised in regards to him responding to a mere whisper. In a concert or guest playing situation I would be has I say stunned in to silenced through out.

I put it to you Howard
Im sorry I failed to mention he was and we all are Floor singers. but does that alter your that opinion on the matter in question?

I did mean my apology when I spoke to the chap.
The reason I brought it on here has you put it in a earlier posting of yours is because I was interested in the response it would get from Catters and it certainly has caused a lively debate.

Clearly not everyone thinks the same has you and others
and clearly you dont agree with them.
This is a discussion site and the issue has been discussed.
and long may it continue to be.
Pierre Le Chapeau.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:21 PM

How do folk all over the world view this debate please post.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 02:40 AM

....unofficial shakey egg players

I love that! So how does one go about getting a qualification in shakey egg and while I'm at it, spoons and castinets?

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: mandotim
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:00 AM

Hi VT! I'm talking about those who sit in the front row, a dreamy look on their faces, swaying gently, with a shakey egg that they shake in what they fondly imagine to be the rhythm of the music. There is a way of dealing with this; when I played in a duo, we used to carry a gold coloured shakey egg, with no beads inside, so no sound. We would offer this to the front row irregulars, telling them it was a professional model, but slightly more difficult to play. When they couldn't produce a sound, we would ask for it back. By this time, one of us would have quietly slipped a real shakey egg up a sleeve. We would shake the 'professional' egg, and there would be sound! This generally produced a laugh, and then we'd explain that we liked percussion on some songs, but not on others, and we'd let them know which ones. (We had a few songs that really suited audience percussion, so everyone was happy). A good spoons player can be a joy to behold (are you there Dame Patti EPNS?)
Tim

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Guest John Hartford
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:06 AM

hi

This thread is an interesting one that shows the wide differences of opinion that occurs in the "folk" fraternity.

Long may it be the case that people can express differing opinions in a sensible way.

As a performer of more years than I care to think about I can feel for both sides of this particular discussion.

However my view is that the performers need to understand the audiences that they are playing to. They do vary from night to night and venue to venue.

I have played at places where it is absolutely forbidden to make any kind of noise what=so-ever during performances. Some places have the door-person to stand outside the room with the door closed and refuse entry until a song finishes. I have played at one place where the atmosphere was so quiet that the sound of the latch on the door being lifted made me jump as I was playing.

I would like to think that audiences and performers should be sympathetic to each others needs.

I once was singing at a venue ( no names ) when two women came and sat a a table near the stage. The started talking very loudly as soon as they sat down and continued through a couple of numbers. I tried eye contact and other warning looks without success so as they were right in the middle of what seemed to be a animated topic, I went down from the stage with the mike AND SAT NEXT TO THEM AT THE TABLE AND JUST PUT THE MIKE BETWEEN THEM.

They looked at me in amazement and as they did so I told them to carry on as their conversation was far more interesting than my song.

They laughed and apologised and I got back on with the performance. They didn't stop talking completely, occasionally launching into voice but I just laughed at them and motioned to join them again.

This went on most of the night but the audience enjoyed it and everything went well.

At the end of the night the women came and chatted with me and told me that they hadn't been upset by my interference and came to a few of my gigs at other venues. Also several of the audience that night complimented me on my handling of a difficult situation.

I hasten to add here that before acting I had weighed up the situation and considered in this particular venue that I would get away with it.

My main message however is that the performer should try to understand and cater for audiences not being silent. They are only human and in most cases they are paying your wages !!!

I will point out that when I am in the audience I do respect the performers. After all I have been there !!!!

I would never "shush" anyone from the stage. To me it is a matter of pride. Grin and bear it and get on the performance.

cheers

John

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:47 AM

I love Mandotim's shakey egg story!

We have a guy who comes to see us pretty often who likes to play the spoons..... not always in time.

We now invite him on stage with us for a couple of songs and give him a set of silent plastic spoons to play ..... he loves the attention, takes it all in good heart and we all have a laugh about it.

On the general theme, quiet is nice, but you can take yourself to seriously. You have to remember that the audience enjoying themselves is the most important part of the evening, not the performer.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:23 AM

I don't see anything particularly wrong with a muttered comment to a neighbour in this situation. Often enough it's an appreciative comment or something I might not have noticed that a friend has. Full on conversations with nothing to do with the music are another matter. (Except in a pub obviously.)

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: skarpi
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

How on earth are you suposed to answer you mobile phone quietly.
well if you are havin a concert you ask everyone kindly to turn them
off , thats what we do , and it has no problem s so far .

but when you play in a pub or play for a dance , you try to get the people with you , get them to sing with you , for you , klapp their hands , sing jibbjæjæjæ get them in feeling , then you are gonna
be fine , its not possible to get all quiet in a pub , but in a concert
thats a another matter .

good luck all .
Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:46 AM

"I don't see anything particularly wrong with a muttered comment to a neighbour in this situation."

Although I do think you should sit and listen to the performer, in most circumstances you could expect it would not be sufficient to distract either the performer or other members of the audience. It may not be particularly wrong, although that doesn't make it right, but usually you could expect to get away with it without upsetting anyone.

On this particular occasion, however, it was sufficient to distract the performer. In these circumstances I think the performer should be given the benefit of the doubt. The impression Pierre has given, at least to me, is that he thinks the performer was in the wrong for allowing himself to be distracted, and that he (Pierre) was in no way at fault.

It does make a difference if the performer is a floor singer rather than a pro. A floor singer is more likely to be susceptible to distractions and disturbances, and perhaps less adept at responding to them. The audience should be sympathetic to this and cut them more slack.

Dick Gaughan, a supreme professional, has said that one of the things which distinguishes him as a pro from even the best amateurs is that at some time during his career everything that could go wrong has gone wrong, and he's learned how to deal with it.

I agree the performer's response was a bit peremptory and I can understand Pierre being upset and annoyed by it. But I still believe it was the performer's prerogative to ask him to be quiet.

To answer the OP's original question, I believe that in a concert the performer (and the audience for that matter) is entitled to silence and attention from the audience. If he doesn't get this, to the extent that it is affecting his performance and/or the enjoyment of the rest of the audience, then he his entitled to express his feelings. Ideally, he should do this in a tactful and humorous manner which does not upset anyone, but this is not always possible.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:12 AM

If it's someone who is performing and wants to keep performing whether professionally or not they are going to have to learn to play on through the odd minor distraction eventually, but i spose I see how a nervous newbie kind of person ought to be cut some slack there.

Didn't see the performer so I can't be sure where they were at experience wise but it does sound like they overeacted to me. And then an (aguably)condescending "it's a closed matter, let's not talk about it" reaction to an apology. I don't know them, but they sound like they might have a little bit of an ego to me.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Crow Sister
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 09:02 AM

"a nervous newbie kind of person ought to be cut some slack there."

First: A nervous newbie should perhaps cut their teeth at a few pub sessions where there will be constant chatter from the regulars (and maybe even session goers) and that may help them overcome the illusion that it's "all about ME!"

Second: Folk Clubs will never attract younger audiences with such a "tut tut" atmosphere for the odd whispered comment*. Give me a bonfire and a few friends, with chatter and laughter and songs somewhere in the middle of it all, if folk clubs are indeed such puritanical places.




*Note: "odd whispered comment" - not constant loud bellowing...

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Simon Heywood
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 09:04 AM

A performance is a collaboration, a dialogue between the performer and the audience. Anyone who performs (I think) would recognise the difference between an audience which is listening and one which isn't, and the effect this has on the performance. The harder they listen, the better you play. There is also an underlying principle that the performance is a shared thing: the person isn't on stage as a superstar or faceless service provider, they are there as part of the same community as the audience, to give of their best and express some common feeling or interest on a more or less equal footing with any audience member.

Folk clubs, I think, used to be regular "shushing dens" where this was generally recognised and acted on, because one disruptive act can be very, well, disruptive. I think this is/was a good thing. It seems to have declined, partly because we have lost some of the sense of that the performers and audience members are members of the same community and the people on stage now feel more like people apart - both in the good sense of being 'special' and the bad sense of being people who are paid to just get on with it, think of the money, and put up with any way the audience chooses to behave. The wider use of PA systems seems to exacerbate this problem by increasing the barrier between the stage and the audience and creating a sense that the music is so loud that it doesn't matter what the audience does. I saw a very vivid illustration of this point a few months ago where owing to logistical glitches the first few acts on a mixed bill had to perform acoustically and the PA was only switched on halfway through the night. Before the PA arrived, everyone had to strain a bit to listen to some beautiful but rather subdued music, and the resulting atmosphere was (for me) magical. Then on went the cabinets and everyone headed to the bar and started yacking away at 90 decibels, and the later performers ended up shouting through mikes at the back of people's heads like they would at any pub rock gig. I think this is a real loss which leads to the impoverishment of traditional music. We all get shushed for talking from time to time (at least, I certainly have been ... ahem), but as a general point, the specially intense quality of listening at folk clubs is a valuable thing, part of the bedrock of the music, and in my view it should be recognised and maintained as such.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 10:03 AM

At our local singaround people are respectful of each other's performances - however, that's a shared understanding, not an enforced dictat. The real problem is in trying to compete with the canned music in the bar...

I think something that starts out as basic good manners can become a stick to beat people with in the hands of those who want to excercise a bit of power, and that's a shame. Self-policing is always preferable to being policed by self-appointed others, don't you think?

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:45 AM

Exactly... someone being rude provokes rudeness from someone else, and it's a vicious circle.

Unfortunately, some people are so thick-skinned that they are blissfully unaware that they are upsetting others - and that goes for both sides of the problem!!

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

Hi everyone
I am floor singer performer I consider myself a strummer on guitar and I do not know what to say about myself vocally.

Two years ago I went to a club in South East London and I recited The Mermaid song.

It was ok and I was happy with the response I got.
One chap on the committee said

"That was good Pete I would like to see you come back again. This this was my first visit. so I returned the next week.

Anyway next week was comprised of more regulars then guests so I thought ok I do the same song again. this one chap was a night mare he talked all the way through but I ignored him and carried on with out fault.

When I finished I got a good response but this one chap who has been with the club for years got quite out spoken. He Said" You done that one last week do you not know any other F..king song?
The week before prior to my first performance at this club this very guy struggled on the guitar and vocally performing Streets of London. I watched him with interest and gave him a hell of a response in regards to applause.

Clearly I have never been back to the club again. I meet some of the club members on my folk visits to the Medway Towns and they ask me why I have never returned.
When I tell them they say so what get over it.

I have got over it. But I,ll never return.
If I behaved like that at my club I would expect to be asked to leave. and not return.

Has it happens the club I am in and the folk I have met on the local south east and Kent circuit are great encouragers and it through them now focus to try to impress.

Kind regards to all.
This thread is interesting remarks from Iceland and Ireland where are our friends comments from across the pond?

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:31 PM

Please be aware it was not what he said?
It was the spitting fit way he said it.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:29 PM

When the late Bob Gibson first decided to become a performing singer of folk songs, he set a "training regime" for himself. Knowing the kind of places he would be singing in, he set himself the task of capturing an audience. He would wander into a beer joint with his banjo and begin singing. In some places, the patrons would listen to him with interest. Very good! But in others, the bartender would tell him to get the hell out. In still others, the patrons would tell him to stop the racket or they'd wrap the banjo around his neck. He would immediately leave and go to the next beer joint down the street.

In some, the patrons would ignore him and keep right on drinking and chattering with each other. These were the ones. It was up to him, he figured, to capture their interest and keep it.

He said that it would be hard to give a point-by-point detailed outline of just how to go about it. He said, "After doing it a lot, you develop a feel for what to do and what to sing. I'm sorry, I can't really explain it. You learn by doing it. A lot!"

I watched him once dealing with a hostile heckler. It was masterful. It wound up with the heckler losing his temper and coming for Gibson, at which time a couple of burly bartenders grabbed the guy and frog-walked him out the door.

Gibson said, "In that kind of situation, do not lose your temper. Use the situation as an opportunity for comedy. Get the audience laughing with you at the heckler. When he realizes that he's the butt of the jokes, he'll either shut up and sit down, or he'll get himself thrown out."

A bit of an apprenticeship singing in noisy venues might just make a singer a bit less sensitive to the occasional whispered aside. The coffeehouses that existed around where I live back in the 1950s and 60s were not concert halls. The entertainment attraction was usually a singer of folk songs, but people also came there for the exotic coffees and other comestibles—and to socialize. A bit of quiet conversation at some of the tables was to be expected, but there were generally enough people listening attentively so that the singers' egos managed to survive.

Unless they were pathologically sensitive, in which case, another line of business might have been advisable.

Don Firth

P. S. Mind you, I really appreciate a quiet, attentive audience. But you have to be realistic about the nature of the venue and what you can expect to find there.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:42 PM

And mobile phones - none of this "switch to silent" nonsense - switch the buggers OFF or confiscate them!

A very understandable sentiment, but there are circumstances when it has to be switch to silent. When my wife was waiting for a kidney transplant she had to have her phone on all the time as a call could come anytime day or night.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:11 PM

Tootler
you are right I always put mine in my pocket close to my underpants on vibrate so if it goes off Im aware of it.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:01 PM

Hmmm... soumds a bit kinky to me, Pierre!

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 04:07 AM

Don, what you say is absolutely right, and good advice for anyone who wishes to become a singer. However, I'm not sure it's entirely suited to the British folk club.

While folk clubs are nearly always in pubs, formal concert-style clubs are usually held in separate function rooms, which may not even have a bar. Where this is not possible, they do at least usually occupy their own area separate from the general public. People go to listen to music - yes, to meet friends and socialise as well, but the understanding in most clubs is that this takes place before and after the performances and during the interval. During performances, and certainly during the actual songs, an attentive silence is desirable. Any comments should be made during the applause or (less acceptably) introductions. These should be quiet and brief - if you want to hold a conversation then go outside. Usually, people will only be permitted to leave or enter the room between songs. Just as you'd expect in a theatre or concert hall.

Most clubs have very few formal rules, it is usually simply a matter of behaving with courtesy and respect for the performers and fellow audience members. Most club goers seem to understand this.

Many, perhaps most, of the floor singers have no aspirations to perform on a professional or semi-professional basis but are simply content to play to their friends on a regular basis. That's not to say that they shouldn't be encouraged to perform well, but it's understandable that many are simply not capable of this, or lack the the experience and expertise to handle interruptions or distractions in the best way. I will not comment on whether this is a good thing (there are endless threads about this) but it is how it is for many clubs.

There are of course many less formal gatherings which do take place in open bars with all the noise and distractions you would expect, and of course performers at these do have to learn to cope. On the other hand, they are probably under less close scrutiny and less pressure to put in a perfect performance.

In this environment it is understandable that an inexperienced performer may feel under considerable pressure and may be very easily distracted and upset by a minor incident, and may over-react. It's no good saying they should go and learn their trade elsewhere - a folk club, rightly or wrongly, is the place where aspiring performers cut their teeth.

I can see that in Pierre's situation the performer possibly was over-sensitive to a minor incident which would probably not have affected most performers, and that he may have over-reacted in the way he responded. But the performer is the person up on stage, and the one under pressure, and imo should be given the benefit of the doubt every time.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,Gyuest John Hartford
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 05:38 AM

hi Don

You are absolutely right....I couldn't have put it better myself.

There is no other way to learn how to handle audiences than to do it until it comes reasonably natural.

There is no manual you can read. Also it is a matter of personality. Some people have the ability to want to involve the audience and can do it. Others don't.

Many years ago I was standing in for a guitarist mate who played in the resident band at a Manchester ( England ) large cabaret club.

This club had top line international acts ( not folk - there weren't any !!).

I was playing in the band one Thursday night. These nights were stag nights and several strippers augmented the top acts. As anyone who has been to stag nights will know, rowdyiness through excess booze in "normal".

The act that week was a South African lady vocalist called Eve Boswell. At that time she had some years had earlier a number of hits.

From the moment she walked on the stage she was greeted by raucous shouts of " gerrem off " etc. We could see that Eve was noticeably upset but she did not get annoyed. She just curtseyed to the audience and said that she would leave the stage to allow more suitable performers to entertain the audience. She walked off blowing kisses to the crowd. The crowd rose to applaud her.

She appeared the following evening as though nothing had happened and went down a bomb.

There is a lesson here !!!

Obviously this is an extreme case and one that wouldn't happen in folk clubs......although I have played in more than one rugby club folk night when "mooners" have decided to "entertain". lol

Different people react differently in certain situations.

As we say up here " thurs nowt as funny as folk "

Happy playing

John

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: scouse
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:04 AM

I well remember Nic Jones saying to the crowd he was playing for over here in dear "Cloggland." "Please excuse me playing while your talking." Main point being the show was being recorded for VPRO Radio Folk.'Nuff said.
As Aye,
Phil.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:13 AM

It could be worse. I've just seen a sign in a local Village Hall: "Please do not flush the toilet during the performance". Presumably they don't sell pints! (OR perhaps they supply wellies!)


RtS

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Dita
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:15 AM

Quieting a noisy room.

Danny Kyle - "Shhhhhh, (pause), the cat's peein'."

Iain MacKintosh- He would play quieter and quieter and mummble inaudibly into the mic until one by one the room hushed to hear what he was saying, then he started.

Rowdy individuals/crowds

Danny Kyle- "Go and sit against the wall, it's plastered tae".

Diggery Venn - "Some village is missing it's idiot tonight".

Cilla & Artie, and Dick Gaughan, pack up and leave, if orginiser not taking control.

Robin Williamson During bardic period, telling stories and playing harp, when confronted with drunk Incredible String Band "fans" loudly insisting on ISB songs, including some of Mike Heron's!. Gig halted while said fans evicted.

I've also used a variation of the "take the mic to the table" trick.

Someone at the back talking loudly and oblivious to what's hapening on stage. Stop mid song, fold arms and listen intently, suddenly the talker realises that all's gone quiet. Looks around puzzled, looks at stage. Moments silence with eyes engaged, then you say "Sorry, my singing and playing was interupting your conversation, it won't happen again".
Round of applause, silence, restart gig.

Kids

In the 70's/80's folk cubs in Scottish seaside town's often had tourists making a large part of the summer crowd (and so giving the clubs a bit of cash in the bank for winter bookings). These crowds often had kids with them, (no baby-sitters in a hotel then).

We used to get the kids down front about the middle of the first set, and spent ten minutes doing kids songs with them. After that we could do no wrong. Our approach contrasted favourably, one organiser told me, with that of a more famous singer/songwriter, who the week before had told a child to "be quiet they were in a folk club". Parents who were regulars, left never to come back.

Doesn't work with sceeming weans though. :)


Whatever you do, do it with good nature, the last thing you want to do is make your audience feel ill at ease, either due to your handling of the situation, or by feeling you are arrogant and bullying. I'm not suggesting you should do nothing as a performer, just do it well, and with humour.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: GUEST,James Hyde
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:45 AM

Dear Friends,

How about this one? You've just started a heartfelt rendition of some tune and the BARTENDER starts making cracks over the PA. Really. About you. Really. All in good fun.

And what about trying to sing while standing beside someone like Bob Wills (whom I love) who keeps popping off with all kinds of bestial noises?

Finally: You have to be able to hear your own voice and instrument loudly and clearly, or you'll be in trouble in any performance setting.

Thanks, folks, for letting me "pop off" too.

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 10:33 AM

Worst display of bad manners from a member of the audience we ever came across was in a London club about ten years ago, by a veteran folkie performer (noted for his loud mouth).
The guest was a singer from the Aran Islands, and she made a point of briefly explaining her Irish language songs to the non-Irish-speaking listeners.
Your man - sitting in the seat behind us, made a point of talking over each introduction - loudly - until we turned around and asked him to shut up.
His response - "I came here to listen to singing, not talking; I thought we'd got rid of this introduction shite back in the sixties".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:06 PM

A good plan regarding mobile phones... explain that you don't mind them going off during your performance as long as the owner doesn't mind donating a fiver to the Charity Box for the privilege...!

Subject: RE: Folk sushhhhing folk
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:07 PM

One Hundred!!