Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Alice
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:04 PM

Art, thank you for that slice of pie.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:32 PM

What is happening here is exactly why I curse the fool who started to use the word "mode" to describe certain scales used in contemporary music practice--People confuse the modes as used in A)contemporary Pop music and Jazz B)Church C)Folk and traditional music, which are related, but not the same (incidentally, Art's explanation above should be printed out and saved) and when they become entangled, it is impossible to get things straightened out until everyone understands the differences between each--

T--I wasn't talking about counterpoint, I was talking about what Jazz people do with the "Dorian" and "dominant" scale-which is simply to play them over chord progressions--

Peter, you need to get a book that provides simple explanations that you can pour over until you understand them--I recommend(if I could, I would actually require it!!) The Harvard Brief Dictionary of Music, which you should be able to find anywhere--

Also, you should get the concepts behind major and minor scales and the keys and basic harmonies really clear in your mind before you start trying to deal with "modes" because, in order to make sense out of them, you must know the other stuff--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Alice
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:51 PM

(incidentally, Art's explanation above should be printed out and saved) M.TED, I am laughing out loud, because as I read this thread tonight and got to Art's message, I immediately opened a text file and copied and pasted just Art's message into it...

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 09:59 PM

OK,

Now I am going to explain something about modes--

At the beginning of this, there was a scale, with fixed intervals (the steps, incidentally, were not of tempered--so that a full step in one part of the scale was not necessarily the same as a full step in another part of the scale) which started on D--the system of modes was developed to allow pieces to be composed centered on each of the steps of the scale--

There were originally Four Authentic Modes--Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, and Mixolydian and each had a corresponding Plagal Mode, such as the Hypodorian, which was centered on the fifth step of the mode, and was used at a proscribed place in the composition--

It is important to note two things--first, this music was not harmonic music, and second, each mode began one and only one pitch (only the Dorian could begin on D, etc)

The Ionian mode and the Aeolian mode, which evolved into the major and minor scales, were not introduced until the sixteenth century--

Enough for now--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 10:27 PM

MMario, what is the 2nd most popular mode depends on where you get your tunes. I think for a general run of instrumental tunes minor mode would be 2nd, but for the 700 or so English traditional vocal tunes of the late 19th and early 20th century that I've coded, minor/aeolian is in 4th place. For the 700+ traditional Irish vocal tunes in Huntington and Herrmann's 'Sam Henry's Songs of the People' (coded at the end of the book) minor/Aeolian is down to 8th place. I've added some more tunes to my file (and have about 1000 more coded, but not yet formatted to read into my program) and the mode count is now at 165.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 10:53 PM

I'm grateful to Billy Gates for the invention of the command "save as.." - this thread will be a part of my library. Sorry for not contributing (I'm not at that level yet) but I can assure you that this information is invaluable. Go on, please.
Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 11:15 PM

At this point I'll introduce thread creep -- Some time in the past six months there was a thread with a "blue clicky thang" to a web site that had a series of Pentatonic scales laid out for fiddle (and, by default, mandolin). I foolishly forgot to bookmark it, and haven't been able to find it since. It was very well done. Do any of you scaly modeists know where that might be ? I'd be ever so grateful !!!

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 11:20 PM

The church modes weren't characterized by beginning on any note, only by their finalis on that note, and by an ambitus, which, however, could be exceeded slightly. Melodies of very narrow or broad range, like those with gapped scales, could be modally ambiguous. Since these were formal classifications, not every melody fit precisely. But the classification of hexatonic folk-melodies according as dorian, phrygian, and so forth, strikes me as perfectly appropriate. If Jesu Nostra Redemptio belongs to mode 8 (sometimes called hypomixolydian) on G, "The New Irish Girl" is just as reasonably assigned to mode 7 (mixolydian) on D (a transposed mode). Nor is the validity of this assignment of the melody necessarily destroyed by adding harmony or polyphony.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 21 Mar 00 - 11:21 PM

Another slip. I meant "heptatonic", not "hexatonic" in my last post.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 12:02 AM

I didn't mean to confuse anyone with the use of the word start--, I only meant to describe the focal point of the mode---it is a little difficult to pick the right words to describe these things, because modes were considered in descending order, not in ascending order, the way we think of scales today--

And you are perfectly right in saying it is reasonable to use modal names to describe folk melodies--it probably isn't unreasonable to assume that there is some relationship, as well--

As to harmonies, my point is simply that harmonies and chords are an innovation of diatonic music, not modal music, although it is certainly possible to add chords and harmonies without compromising the "modal" quality--it is a modern innovation(at least, if you consider the sixteenth century modern)--

Today, MiddleEastern pop bands accompany melodies using classical arabic scales with guitar chords--on using the same principle--

My main objective was to try to clarify the point that "modes" predated the diatonic scale, modern ideas of harmony.and the concept of being able to play different major and minor scales in different keys--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 11:53 AM

Sorcha (or whomever), I think I made some kind of error in my thinking, or maybe the books are confusing me. As you can tell, once I get into this, I get tenacious in trying to make it clear to my poor brain. Please help. I am trying to make sense of what you said about being able to play the "patterns in any key". The question I want to ask is whether "any key" means "any key" in standard major mode, or any key structure generated by a new mode.

In the books I have (their explanations are lousy, and stop about here), there is a similar statement that you can start these patterns - Dorian, etc. -- on any key, but the key is in the standard scale. The example they use is, of course, C, so in standard scale you could have C-Ionian (the standard), D-Dorian (doing a Dorian progression starting on the D note), E-Phrygian, and so on. IT THEN SAYS YOU DO THE SAME IN ALL OTHER KEYS. This means, for instance, if you shift to the key of G, then you would of course usually start on the G note to do the scale, but you would have to add an F# to ---? This is one question:

1) If you are in a standard key like G, and you want to go up, as we did earlier in the key of C, which would now in G be G-Ionian, A-Dorian, B-Phrygian, etc., do you add the sharps to the progression, thus changing the Tone-Semitone (T-S) pattern throughout, or what? What do you do with standard sharps and flats when you are doing a Dorian in the standard key of G, or F, or whatever?
And my more basic question:

2) More generally, this whole approach -- that is, building your patterns on the major scale and its keys --sounds different than what I jumped to as my conclusion from what Sorcha said. I assumed that what was meant was that a different mode -- let us say Dorian -- would have its own system of keys and relationships. The book approach (and maybe this has something to do with the dispute going on in the last few postings that I don't understand) seems to require you to build your different modes beginning on the standard scale linked to standard keys in the standard modes -- C-Ionian, D-Dorian, etc. But is that really necessary, or just an artefact of teaching people to play? What I want to ask is whether these modes create a musical universe of their own, which can -- but doesn't have to be -- connected to the standard major/minor note structure as set out in the books.

I am not sure I am being clear about what I am trying to say, but I am trying.....

I think that I may be doing something very, very wrong here, which is to try and relate the "well-tempered" system, which was designed to generate a tightly linked musical universe so you could go back and forward smoothly between keys, to something different. I can't help thinking that these other modes must be messier and not easily connected to the other modes -- the whole effort to rationalise the musical universe is what gave us major/minor. This approach must somehow be wrong, and yet....yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: IanC
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 12:19 PM

I think the people who are saying forget modes are probably right unless you're a musical professional trying to fit things into slots (which is perfectly OK if you are).

The whole thing came up because a lot of classically trained musicians started collecting folk music and song in the 19th century. They found that the uneducated folk weren't always using the major scale which they had been brought up with (why should they) and it confused them.

In particular, a lot of songs were sung with a "flattened 7th" - that is the note below the keynote (normally half a tone below it) was sung somewhere between a half and a whole tone below.

At first, they just thought the stupid peasants were singing out of key. Later they realised that this was so widespread it couldn't be an accident. This worried them - how could these uneducated people do things they found hard?

To try and describe this, they used the different modes mentioned above. Unfortunately, even this didn't work and their only recourse was to record the stuff.

Nowadays, we are probably too educated to sing the stuff properly, so we are inclined to sing it modally.

Confused? I am!

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 12:41 PM

Peter, when you are un-GUESTed, check your personal messages.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 12:42 PM

Peter T., as I mentioned earlier the question of temperament is separable. Dorian, phrygian, etc. modes can be built up from 7 notes and their octaves: C, D, E ...B. It doesn't matter whether these frequencies are 12-equal, pythagorean, quarter-comma meantone, well-tempered (not, I think, the same as 12-equal) or any other temperament. The scale is defined by the relative positions of the tones and semitones.

The same applies to the scale G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. All the traditional scales can be defined on these notes, in any temperament, though the frequencies will differ in different temperaments.

Now, IF you work in a 12-equal system, that might create relationships among scales on different finals that might not otherwise exist. One might find, and exploit harmonically, relationships among D-dorian, E-dorian, F-dorian, and so forth, just as theorists find relationships among different major keys. There are various schools of thought, arent' there, about what are "good" and "bad" key modulations ? I don't know any reason a priori why such rules and relationships mightn't be devised for scales besides major and minor.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 01:16 PM

Sorry, at a different computer today, and in a different place: so your assistance Sorcha is delayed (but welcome).

Okie, you are introducing more new language. Let me see if I can get this straight. The basic scale language, whatever, wherever, is from one octave to another, C to C, D to D, whatever. 12-equal is what, 12 semitones all equal in a 7 note scale plus octave? Anyway, laying out these notes, you can build any mode you like starting anywhere you like. The modes tend -- to our ears -- to cluster around things like D as the starting point for Dorian, and so on.

You don't say if in building other modes up starting in a standard scale whether you take into account the sharps and flats when you get out of C major and into (Say) D major -- you are still in standard major mode, but are building a related Dorian sequence. What I mean is not just the fact that there is an F# or a C# as the beginning note: Do you have to alter the sequence in the new mode to take the sharps and flats of the standard key into account? Or are you now in completely new terrain? The book(s) stop before this point.

Or maybe you do say, and I am just not getting it. My temperament may be too well-tempered.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 01:22 PM

And I also found your Bantry Bay chords in the DT, under Satr of the County down! See that thread.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 01:39 PM

Peter T., I still don't see what your problem is. You can start a diatonic major scale on any frequency. It is (as I think you know) the sequence of tones and semitones that makes it a major scale. If you create a scale starting on the second of the major scale, you get a dorian scale. It contains exactly the same notes as the major scale, just in a different order, and the sequence of tones and semitones is exactly the same as in a dorian scale with its tonic on any other note. Hence A-dorian contains A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, exactly the same notes as for G-major. No additonal sharps or flats are needed, but no fewer, either. To build major on G and dorian on A, F# must exist, but no other sharp or flat need exist. Obviously, though, this approach presupposes the prior existence of F-natural; or, put another way, it presupposes some at-least-locally-agreed-upon frequency standard which fixes A, B, C...G in such a way that the creation of an F# is necessary if one is to have a dorian scale with its final (or tonic) was previously designated "A".

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 01:44 PM

The just intonation scale has 21 notes in the octave, but that's just for C major/ A minor. If you want to transpose to other keys you have to add more notes, for a total of 70, but that also lets you play in 6 major/ minor keys that you can't get with the 12 note scale. All 70 notes are given in a file on my website, starting with the basic 21, then adding those needed for 1 sharp or flat on the key signature, then 2, then 3, to 7, then the extra 6.

There is also a treatment there of all the normal 7, 6, and 5 notes scales and a click on to Jack Campin's website for an alternative treatment with many examples as ABCs.

File COMBCOD2.TXT now has over 5300 tunes codes in 166 total modes.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 02:06 PM

Here is my table of frequencies copied from the other thread, with additional notes. The first column is pythagorean, the second column is 12-equal. Frequencies are in Herz, A-natural=440 in both systems.

A   440.000   440.000
Bb  463.539   466.164
B    495.000   493.883
C   521.482   523.251
C#  556.875   554.365
D   586.667   587.330
Eb  618.052   622.254
E   660.000   659.255
F   695.309   698.456
F#  742.500   739.989
G   782.222   783.991
Ab  824.070   830.609
G#  835.313   830.609

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 02:22 PM

Hmmm, Okie. Let me try to pinpoint my stupidity. Always a tough task -- where to start....
Suppose I start on a C note. I build a standard scale, C to C. No sharps, no flats. Now I shift to a D note. To build a standard scale starting on D, because of the T-S pattern shift, I need two sharps (F# and C#) to make the key of D in standard. That would be called D-Ionian or D major. O.K.

People usually start a Mixolydian on G, but suppose instead I decide to create D-Mixolydian. I start on D, and go up the scale to the next D. Would the only accidental in it that would appear on standard sheet music be a flat (Mixolydian has a flatted seventh, right?) on C? It would have nothing to do with the F# and C# in a D major scale. We only link it to D because in our standard system, the D to D pattern on the white keys of the piano creates Dorian. So: when Sorcha says you can do this pattern in "any key" that doesn't mean that. What it means is you can do it from any note. So when someone says A-Dorian, it doesn't mean Dorian in the key of G, as my books imply -- they say that in the standard key of G you would have G-Ionian, A-Dorian, etc.-- that is just for neatness sake -- it has nothing to with the key of G -- it just means we have a Dorian scale that starts on A, and it could be in the standard key of E or F, for that matter.

Right???

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,soddy
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 02:40 PM

Peter, It helps to understand modes, and the chords that can be structured from their scales when accompanying fiddle tunes. The most frequently used modes in fiddle music are the Aeolian, the Dorian, and the Myxolydian. In the Aeolian, or natural minor scale, for instance you would know that the I chord is minor, the IV chord is minor and the V7 chord is minor. In the Dorian mode, the I chord is minor, the IV chord is Major, and the V chord is minor, although more often the VII chord is used which is Major. In the Myxolydian mode, the I chord is Major, the IV chord is Major, the V chord is minor. Usually the VII chord is substituted for the V chord, the VII being Major. It may help to associate a well know fiddle tune with a particular mode, for example Old Joe Clark is a Myxolydian tune, so is June Apple. (Cold) Frosty Morning is a Dorian tune. Does this help?

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 02:45 PM

The mixolydian intervals are TTSTTST. If I start on D, then I generate: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D. C is already a whole tone below D. The Key-signature for a melody in this scale would show one sharp. Saying that this melody is "in the key of" G might or might not be accurate depending on what was meant. To say that a melody built on an A-dorian scale could be "in the key of" E or F might be accurate in some contexts, though I can't imagine any such context. That is, I can't imagine trying to communicate any information about such a melody alone that I would think was best communicated by saying that the melody was "in the key of" E or F. If the melody were embedded in a larger work, I might designate the larger work as being in the key of E or F. Whether a work in F with an embedded melody in D-mixolydian or A-dorian could be made to sound good is a separate question. In a 12-equal system, where F#=Gb, I suppose one could pull it off if one were clever enough.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 03:32 PM

Okie, and others who have donated their wisdom to this thread:

I am less skilled in this kind of music theory than Peter T., and I can only say I greatly appreciate your erudition and your patience in clarifying the realities of these terms. Especially working up and down the subject instead, as might be easier, starting from basic terms and working up from there, it is not untrying to communicate a subject with so many curves in it. You are part of what makes this community so strong and vital. Many many thanks.

A

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 03:59 PM

Peter-- I'll try to give you an overall explanation, and hope that it clarifies your questions--

A Scale is a pattern of whole steps and half steps that cover the span of an octave--generally, it includes seven different pitches, the lowest pitch and the highest being the same--

Each of the scales that we have been talking about(Major, Minor, Dorian Mode...etc) has it's own, distinct, order of whole steps and half steps--

Our modern, chromatic, system divides the octave up into 12 equally spaced half steps--this allows you to begin any scale (any pattern of whole steps and half steps) on any note, and apart from the difference in pitch, the relationships will sound the same--

(Note:The older modal system only divided the octave into seven parts, some of which were whole steps, and some of which were half steps--you couldn't change a Dorian mode into a major scale, because they didn't have a pitch in between the F and the G--)

(W=Whole tone, H=Half tone, WH=Whole tone plus a half tone)

If you start on G and use the major scale pattern, W-W-H-W-W-W-H, you will have a G major scale (G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G) If you use a Dorian mode pattern, W-H-W-W-W-H-D, you will have a G Dorian mode (G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F-G)--

You may even create a scale like my Hijaz Makam (The scale used in "Miserlou") which is H-WH-H-W-H-WH-H, (G-Ab-B-C-D-Eb-F#-G)

Even though you can change a C major scale to a Lydian mode by changing the F to an F#, To change a G major scale--you must raise the fourth step in the scale, which is C, to C#(A G major scale actually has an F# in it)--

Also, don't confuse the G Dorian mode (which simply is a Dorian mode that starts on G) with the Dorian mode relative to the key of G major (which starts on A)

Basically, you have to remember that the sharps and flats are a way of adjusting the pitches to give you the intervals that you need for the scale you want--

If you want a Dorian mode that relates to the key of, say, A--you must start on the second step of the A major scale, and use only the notes that are in the A scale--which are: A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A, the mode would be B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A-B--

It is a mistake to try to try to establish an overarching relationship between the modes--the modes only exist if you use fairly narrow rules to define the place that melodic phrases end--other than this, since the notes are all the same, and you are playing over the same chords, there is no difference between playing in Phrygian mode or an Ionian mode--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM

It took me so long to write my post that T anwered the question without my knowing it--if it is any help Peter, don't take our posts as being contradictory in any way--we are saying the same thing, just in different ways--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:15 PM

According to this link, a G-mixolydian melody "sounds good" (i.e. there are no jarring dissonances) when played over a Gsus4 chord, and a D-dorian melody sounds good when played over a Dm7 chord. M.Ted mentioned some other "sound-good" relationships of this kind. I though he was off topic, but maybe he was right on. Is it relationships of this kind, besides the obvious ones (X-mixolydian over Xsus4, X-dorian over Xm7) just mentioned, that Peter T. is trying to work out ?

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:09 PM

Perhaps this table will help to clarify how the various modes and keys inter-relate (Hope I've got the HTML right!)

Key Signature		Major	Dorian	Phrygian	Lydian	Mixolydian	Minor	Locrian
Sharps	7	C#	D#	E#	F#	G#	A#	B#
	6	F#	G#	A#	B	C#	D#	E#
	5	B	C#	D#	E	F#	G#	A#
	4	E	F#	G#	A	B	C#	D#
	3	A	B	C#	D	E	F#	G#
	2	D	E	F#	G	A	B	C#
	1	G	A	B	C	D	E	F#
	0	C	D	E	F	G	A	B
Flats	1	F	G	A	Bb	C	D	E
	2	Bb	C	D	Eb	F	G	A
	3	Eb	F	G	Ab	Bb	C	D
	4	Ab	Bb	C	Db	Eb	F	G
	5	Db	Eb	F	Gb	Ab	Bb	C
	6	Gb	Ab	Bb	Cb	Db	Eb	F
	7	Cb	Db	Eb	Fb	Gb	Ab	Bb

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:21 PM

The essential point about modes is that there are chord progressions based on them which define their character. For example, a C minor chord and an F major chord define a C dorian mode. An A minor chord and a G major chord (or E minor) define an A Aeolian mode. The G major chord and an F major chord define a G Myxolydian mode. A C major and a D major chord define a C Lydian mode. The E major or E minor chord and an F major chord define an E Phrygian mode. The Lochryan mode is a theoretical one and not really found in the folk music tradition. For furthur information on this, Bronson has written something about it and if you really want to get theoretical then you could read Bill Russell's tome on Lydian tonality. (Bill Russell is a jazz arranger and trombonist who has worked with modes in jazz).

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:23 PM

Is Hijaz Makam related to Tommy?

Art

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 06:26 PM

Ach-you volkzingers!! Alvays making with xe funny buziness!

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 06:38 PM

Raising my intelligence level always takes a small army, so I thank all those striving so hard and perhaps futilely to do so -- I feel a bit like a mule in quicksand. At some point I want to get to the more interesting stuff, which is what is used with what. However, if I think I have got this, M. Ted is saying something no one has said before, and it is the crux of what I have been asking -- the difference I have been trying to get straight. To quote: "Don't confuse the G Dorian mode (which simply is a Dorian mode that starts on G) with the Dorian mode relative to the key of G major." THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAS BEEN CONFUSING ME.

Sorry to keep translating this back into my language/examples -- I am trying to keep some personal consistency here. O.K. Let me see if I can get this right.

A G major scale (major meaning standard scale) is G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. If you use a Dorian mode pattern on it, T-S-T-T-T-S-T, you will end up with a G-Dorian that looks like: G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F-G. The F# is naturalised for one thing, and there is now one flat. We would normally say that we are in the key of F?? Right? When you crank out a G-Dorian, it turns into an F scale, except it starts and ends on a G note. So G-Dorian in this sense could be related to the standard F key. This is a Dorian mode type #1.

But, if you want the Dorian related to the key of G itself, (a) IT IS NOT G-DORIAN but A-DORIAN -- you head for an A. AND (b) WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS IN THIS DIFFERENT KIND OF DORIAN YOU STICK WITH THE G SCALE, it is not changed. So A-Dorian turns out to be A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A. You have simply taken the G scale and just gone up one note to start on A. (M. Ted's worked example is the key of A, but I am trying to pull out the difference here between the two versions of modality).

Is this right? It is no wonder I am so confused -- we are talking about two quite different versions of what modes mean.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 07:12 PM

Or are we? If I take an A scale with its 3 sharps and "Dorianize it", do I end up with the G major scale with its 1 sharp on F? I guess so. So it is the same after all? yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 09:17 PM

No I think you've hit one of the major translation difficulties there Peter. At the moment, the concept of modes is becoming more and more fashionable in the folk music world. I'm not saying they haven't been around before but the terminology is being used by more and more people with less and less accuracy. And lets face it musicians can be very strange about the way they describe what they're doing:

"A third plus a fifth is a seventh.." "You failed grade one didn't you."

Therefore you can get into any number of misunderstandings about what is actually being described. I will say G dorian and mean the relative dorian of F but not everybody does use this. I don't, now I come to think of it know if this correct but it is similar to the way I describe an D minor (relative to F major) scale.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM

Thanks guest, and all. I think I have perhaps exhausted everyone's good will (temperament) on the technical side, so have decided to go away and see if I can work through a good book on the subject, given this great start. To revert to the really interesting topic, could anyone give some more examples of reasonably well known tunes or types of music in different modes? It would be nice to have some echoing in the ear as we converse.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM

I don't ordinarily think of a D-minor scale as if it were a D-major scale with a lowered third, sixth, and seventh. I find it more useful to think of it as a cyclic permutation of F-major.

Thinking of a dorian scale in terms of modifying a major scale on the same tonic (by lowering the third and seventh) seems as unhelpful as thinking of a minor scale as a modification of a major scale on the same tonic. I suppose it might lead to insights that might not otherwise occur to one, but if I want to think of a dorian scale as related to other scales, I prefer to think of it as either (1) a cyclic permutation of the major scale with its tonic on the note a step below the dorian's tonic (X-dorian as a cyclic permutation of (X-1)-major); or (2) a minor scale on the same tonic with a raised 6th (X-dorian as X-minor with raised 6th.)

Likewise one can think of X-mixolydian as (1) a cyclic permutation of X+3 major or (2) X-major with a lowered 7th. I wouldn't ordinarily think of it as a modification of X-minor, though there's nothing illegal, immoral, or fattening about doing so.

If you look at my chording of Orientis Partibus above, you'll see that the melody-plus-chords has some characteristics of a work in C-major and some characteristics of a work in G-major. I find it easiest to think of it in the first instance as simply mixolydian, rather than "an air in C which closes on the dominant" or "an air in G with a lowered 7th."

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:41 AM

Peter T., you never confirmed or denied whether abc notation was useful to you.

Just in case it is, here is a dorian air in abc notation:

X:1
T:En ce premier jour de Mai--Source: Bib Nat. fr. 9346, 15th century
M:2/2
Q:1/2=60
K:C
D4A4 | G4c4 | c2(BA)B4 | A8 | G6G2 | F4A4 | A2G3(FED)| E4D4 :|
D4F4 | E4G4 | G6F2 | E4D4 | D4A4 | A4A4 | G4F4 | E8 | D4A4 | G4c4 | c6c2 |
B4A4 | z2 A2G4 | F4E4 | D2G4F2 | E4D4 ||

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 10:04 AM

Sorry, Okie, missed that earlier. ABC is OK. I am capturing all this fitfully!! yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 10:26 AM

Peter T., I think I now understand one of your earlier questions. Maybe you've worked out the answer yourself by now, but anyhow:

If you want to generate a mixolydian scale by lowering the 7th of a major scale on the same tonic, then, yes, you do "take into account" the sharps or flats of the major scale. If you want to generate X-mixolydian from X-major, and X-major has Z at the 7th, then you change Z to Z-flat. If X-major has Z-flat at the 7th, then (assuming 12-equal temperament) you lower Z-flat to (Z-1)-natural. If X-major has Z-sharp at the 7th, you lower to Z-natural.

If you want to generate X-dorian by taking X-minor and raising the 6th, and X-minor has Y at the 6th, then you create X-dorian by raising Y to Y-sharp. If X-minor has Y-flat at the sixth, you create X-dorian by raising to Y-natural. If X-minor has Y-sharp at the sixth, you create X-dorian (assuming 12-equal temperament) by raising Y-sharp to (Y+1)-natural.

To answer another question, yes, the X-dorian created by raising the 6th of X-minor is the same X-dorian that you get by a cyclic permutation of (X-1)-major. The X-mixolydian you get by lowering the 7th of X-major is the same X-mixolydian you get by a cyclic permutation of (X+3)-major.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM

I think y'all have answered all my questions about modes. Now if I could just figure out what the questions were.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 10:39 AM

Peter T--

You sound like you've got it--and I am really glad--

Thank you for sticking with this line of questioning till you got what you needed--it is the only way to learn about music, even if it seems unpleasant and messy--a lot of people don't have the tenacity to hang in through the flak, confusion, and periodic despair, and the result is that they get hung up on a question that they never quite understand the answer to, and never get any farther--

I am going to save this thread, because you managed to squeeze a lot of very useful information out of people--though most of is fairly dense and requires further interpretation--

It also shows what a wonderful resource Mudcat can be--

Aloha,

Ted

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 11:07 AM

Okie--I had to change the Key designation in order to get your abc file to play--the problem that I have is that I had to change it to Dm and now I don't know if I should leave the modulation as original, or change it to Dorian, in order to get it to sound right--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 11:13 AM

M.Ted, that's wierd. I thought all abc software would respond correctly if the formal, written key signature were specified in the K-field, while not all abc software would accept "D-dorian" there. Maybe this is a bug.

Obviously if you specify D-minor you need to set all the B's to B-natural by hand (that would be B^ in a D-minor context, wouldn't it ? I seldom use accientals in abc notation)

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 11:46 AM

I reset the Key to D and went into the play menu under intonation and set it to Dorian--I think that this solves my problem--next question, in the fourth from the last measure, there is a z2 which plays as a sort of click--what note should this be?

Aloha,

Ted

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 12:08 PM

In my dialect of abc, "z" indicates a rest. T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 12:08 PM

The confusion about the labeling of modal scales comes from the fact that they were supposedly conceived before our standard notational system. The way of identifying them came about later by relating them to the C major scale. Then, subsequently, to the other keys. The best way to identify a mode is to ignore the scale it's derived from. To call, for example, an A dorian in the key of G is unnecessary unless you are concered with modulations as in jazz. It's best to consider the A dorian as it's own entity and forget the G major scale.

A good way of identifying the pitches to the respective modes would be as follows. Alter the A dorian scale from the D major scale. It would look like this:

1,2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8. Altered from the D major scale it would be D, E, F natural (altered from F#) G, A, B (the distinctive dorian note) C natural (altered from C#) and the octave D. This is a good way to understand it through ear training. Hear the alterations from the major scale.

Phrygian mode: 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 8 Lydian mode: 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Myxolydian mode: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8 Aeolian mode: (same as a natural minor scale) 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 8 Lochryian mode: (A theoretical mode, not found in folk music) 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, 8

Do the respective alterations in each key and you will begin to hear these modes.

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 01:09 PM

Ahh, well, that goes a long way to explaining why no note is sounded when I get to that place in the music--sorry--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 01:47 PM

Good folks,

I'd suggest, as I tried to indicate in my previous post here, that it would be EASIER for folkies to get a handle on the idea of modes as they apply to folkdom (and ear musicians like me) to USE an Appalachian dulcimer to ACTUALLY SEE how the modes/scales change on the dulcimer fingerboard as you re-tune and start from a different place/fret/home tone.

Some of you know that JEAN RITCHIE from Viper, Kentucky is the single PERSON MOST RESPONSIBLE for bringing the 3-stringed mountain dulcimer and, therefore the modes, to the attention of all of us. I just can't yell that loud enough from here. I do want the younger folks new to this folk world to know that it was Jean and her family who showed the instrument to the whole U.S.A.----and then to the world. People can add strings or double 'em up all they want, it's still Ms Jean Ritchie who brought the dulcimer out of the hills and lovingly gave it to all of us.

Jean, I love you. And THANKS !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 02:02 PM

Actually, the dulcimer revival began in the late 30s with John Jacob Niles and Frank Warner. Jean Ritchie (born c. 1914) was still a young lass in those days. But it was indeed bonnie Jean who took the Appalachian dulcimer to the Newport Folk Festival at a critical time. It attracted enough attention that the hammered dulcimer people had to call one of their societies the Original Dulcimer Something-or-other in order to distinguish themselves.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 02:11 PM

It sure sounds like there's some interesting information being imparted here...too bad I can't understand it. What was it Rick Fielding said to me in another thread about getting too complicated?: "Neil, we're just folkies here..." as if to say that this folk music stuff is relatively straightforward. Well, if that's the case, I'm glad I'm primarily a blues enthusiast...just stick to the good ole' pentatonic scale in the familiar blues keys: A, E, G, and D, mostly.

I think I've got a plan, though. A la Marlon Perkins I'll hold the camera while Peter T. wrestles the alligator, euphemistically speaking. Then when he posts his Eureka summation, which, after all the mental energy he's expended, should be in terms that even I can understand, I will step in and greedily devour the fruits of all his labor. My friends will be so impressed, the neighbors equally astounded, with the depth and breadth of my knowledge, obtained at a fraction of the effort it cost to assemble it. I have no shame.

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 02:23 PM

Neil,

You only think you're playing a pentatonic scale--but that is another discussion;-)