Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 12:29 PM

Just wanted to thank you all for the info here. I've been straight out with work etc. and haven't had time to sloooowly read. It's good to see OTHER students have an incomplete in Prof. Fielding's "starter" homework assignment on the guitar. Maybe today.....

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: GUEST,Night Owl
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 12:30 PM

whooops above post was mine......I MISS Loki!!!!

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 04:44 PM

To compound the problem (this is why it's dangerous to talk about music without playing it) in Nashville recording studios they use arabic numerals to refer to chord positions rather than roman numerals.

Frank

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 01 - 05:11 PM

I think I am on a "need to know" basis...read it all, played and sang all of my life and I still don't feel I need to know the whys and wherefores. HOWEVER, it IS fascinating and I HOPE, RICK, that you will go on with another progression to a new thread, as this one if getting rather long.**BG**

Thanks everyone!

kat

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Bert
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 02:13 PM

Rick, What was that thread you started about practicing with open tunings?

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 12:13 PM

I realize this thread has an official continuation at “Your best musical advice in one post!,” but the new thread really has a different subject and I have a theory question that really doesn't fit in the continuation thread.

Why is the spelling of F#dim7 listed as F# A C Eb? I would have thought it should be F# A C D# because key signatures seem to contain either all sharps or all flats.

Of course a key called F# would have to have six sharps including E# (F) and a key called Gb would have to have six flats including Cb (B). Can there be major keys by those names?

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Gary T
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 01:53 PM

Mark, you're probably technically right about the notes in F#dim. Possibly people write it the other way because in general, Eb gets mentioned a lot more often than D# does, and just springs to mind sooner.

I addressed your second question in a post above, as follows:

The key of F#/Gb is a bit trickier than the others. If you call it F#:

F#--G#--A#-B--C#--D#--F-F# or F#--G#--A#-B--C#--D#--E#(=F)--F#

You either have to use "F" twice and not use "E" or use E# to indicate F.

If you call it Gb:

Gb--Ab--Bb-B--Db--Eb--F-Gb or Gb--Ab--Bb-Cb(=B)--Db--Eb--F--Gb

You either use "B" twice and not use "C" or use Cb to indicate B.

I would say the second choice in each of the above is more technically correct, as the key signature will have either six sharps (F#) or six flats (Gb).

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 01 - 01:57 PM

Chords are defined by frequency ratios in a just intonation scale, and with a 12 tone equal tempered scale they don't always work out well. The 12TET approximation seems to be nowhere worse than for a diminished 7th where the ideal ratio is 1.20 between the notes. F# A C Eb is correct (366.67, 440, 2*264, 2*316.8 in just intonation)

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 01:30 PM

The answer to Mark Clark's questions are 1) Whoever listed the F#dim7 as F#A#C Eb made a mistake, the note is an E not an Eb, so the chord would be F#A#C E--Eb(D# is the 6th of F#, and if you played a chord with that note in it, it would not be aF#dim7--and the note *would* be written as D#--so there is no problem here-

2)Yes, you can write in either the key F# or Gb--E# and Cb are OK to use, when you need to use them.The fact that are enharmonic with F and B doesn't make any difference--When you write in the F#, there are six sharps noted in the staff, which means that every note (except B)is played a half step higher than it would be in the C scale.

It isn't merely possible to write in F#, Irving Berlin wrote everything in the key of F#, leaving the transposition to others--given the quality of his work, it might be one of the best keys to write in--

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Gary T
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 03:07 PM

I just spent some time looking at some chord resources on the internet (enter "diminished chord" into the box at Google).

One source showed a diminished chord to have three notes: 1, 3b, & 5b. However, others mentioned that a dimished 7th chord, which has four notes, can be written as Xdim, Xdim7, or X(little circle that I don't have on my keyboard). Mark's question, and my answer above, are both referring to the diminished 7th chord, even though he wrote F#dim7 and I wrote F#dim.

M.Ted's response above seems to be talking about an F#7 with a flatted 5th--F#7b5?

Now to the meat of Mark's question about naming the notes in F#dim:

The definition I saw for a dimished 7th chord is: 1, 3b, 5b, 7bb (that's note 7 double flatted). Even though note 7bb is the same as note 6 (in the F# major scale, D#), when we're talking about the dim chord the reference for this note is based on note 7 (in the F# major scale, E#), so it would be logical to use its name. Hence, F#-A-C-Eb is consistent with the theoretical derivation of the chord.

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 03:32 PM

M.Ted, Thanks for your input, maybe one of these days I'll have it all straight.

Still, I think I need further explanation of your spelling for F#° (F#dim7). I have understood diminished seventh chords to be spelled as tonic, flatted third, flatted fifth, flatted flatted [sic] seventh. One notable characteristic of the dim7 chord is that each note in the chord is a minor third from the note above and below it and, since that is true, a diminished seventh chord may be named for any one of the four notes it contains. For this reason, any given closed fingering for a diminished seventh chord played one fret higher, and then one more fret higher, will have produced some inversion of all possible diminished seventh chords.

Since E is the dominant seventh note of the F# scale, it must be flatted (diminished) for use in the F#° chord. To quote Lee Evans and Martha Baker in their book “How to Play Chord Symbols in Jazz and Popular Music,”

A diminished chord is a chord built in minor 3rds from the root up, and appears in the leadsheets as any of the following chord symbols: C°, C°⁷, Cdim, Cdim7.

A diminished chord occurs most frequently in jazz and popular music as a four-note chord, as shown above, regardless of whether the symbol says C° or C°⁷. The 7th of the chord is a diminished 7th but is sometimes spelled as a major 6th. Enharmonic spellings are frequently used in jazz to facilitate reading, as seen in the following...

They go on to explain the harmonic spelling of C° as C Eb Gb Bbb. In “The Musician's Guide To Harmony And Theory” by Leon White the author states:

When a MINOR interval is reduced one half step, the new resulting interval is also known as “DIMINISHED.” A to C is a Minor third. A to Cb is a Diminished third.

Since the interval from the perfect fifth to the dominant seventh is a minor third, I think that again argues for the diminished seventh being Eb in the F# scale. Mr. White also spells Cdim7 as C Eb Gb Bbb adding as a footnote, “This is a special chord with a double flatted 7th note: flatted two times, from B to Bb, and then from Bb to A.”

I'll be very interested in the explanation supporting the use of E in the F#° chord.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 04:05 PM

Gary T, you can make the little circle (°) by holding down the Alt key while typing 0176 on your numeric keypad. Another method is to click Start/Run, enter "charmap" and click OK. This will give you a lot of characters that aren't on the standard keyboard. If you click on the little circle (4 rows down directly under the zero) and look in the lower right-hand corner of the dialog box, you'll see the keyboard sequence that produces the character. You can also just copy the character and paste it into your text.

I must have been preparing my response while you were posting yours. I think the chord M.Ted was describing might properly be called F#-7(b5) or F sharp minor seventh flat five. Don't forget that he included the flatted third. Otherwise, as you can see, my analysis is similar to yours.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Gary T
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 04:36 PM

Mark, thanks for the tip on the circle and other characters. That's good stuff to know.

I don't see a flatted third in M.Ted's post. I see A# twice, even when referring to the notes you posted. It may be a typo, but neither A# nor E are found in the chord you asked about. Without the flatted third, I wouldn't use the word "minor" in naming the chord. F sharp seventh flat five would make sense to me ("seventh" being understood to mean the flatted seventh note of the scale, as opposed to "major seventh" meaning the seventh note).

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 05:25 PM

First, I was writing about a different chord, F#A C E, which logically would be the F# dim7-and then I wrote an A# where I meant A- mistake again--didn't mean to confuse--

As per the definitions above, even though a diminished chord features notes that are a minor third apart, because of the funny way that the note names in the scale are set up, it is not possible to spell them so that the notes reflect that--you have to squeeze the extra half step out somewhere, and that would vary, depending on which chord and which key you were using--

In F#, you would probably write it as F# A C D#, which is to say, your sharps are in the key signature, so you'd put natural signs next to the A and the C--in F, with one flat in the key signature, you'd put a accidental sharp next to the F and an accidental flat next to the E--

One thing to remember is that that in a major scale, the diminished triad does occur naturally, extending from the 7th step (B D F) but the four note diminshed chord(B D F Ab) has to be constructed with an out of scale note, written as an accidental--

This means that, in many cases where a diminished chord is used, the accompaniment actually passes into another key, and the notation has to reflect that-

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Dec 01 - 09:07 PM

M.Ted, Yeah, I thought the A# looked like a typo. Someday when I've gone a year or two (or maybe even a day) without a typo, I'll start worrying about other people's typos. What is the quotation about getting the log out of my own eye before trying to remove the mote from someone else's. <g>

But I still have a question. You wrote:

First, I was writing about a different chord, F#A C E, which logically would be the F# dim7...

See, that's where I don't understand what you're trying to teach me. It seems clear to me—supported by two different authors—that the F#° chord must be spelled F# A C (Eb or D#). If I understand Evans and Baker (quoted above) correctly, naming the note D# is the enharmonic spelling sometimes used for clarity instead of the more conventional Eb. In either case, the named note must be a minor third above C or a diminished third above C#, the perfect fifth above F#.

F# A C E must properly be called F#-7(b5) as follows. A is the minor third of F# making it a minor chord, E is the dominant seventh of F# making it an F#-7 (minor seventh) and since C# is the perfect fifth of F#, C must be the flatted fifth, ergo F#-7(b5).

But then you wrote:

In F#, you would probably write it as F# A C D#, which is to say, your sharps are in the key signature, so you'd put natural signs next to the A and the C--in F, with one flat in the key signature, you'd put a accidental sharp next to the F and an accidental flat next to the E--

which exactly agrees with my enharmonic spelling for F#° and places each note a minor third above its predecessor.

I understand about the diminished triad occurring naturally in music without the diminished 7th. It's only by the convention of jazz and popular music that a diminished chord on a leadsheet is always assumed to refer to a diminished 7th. What I don't understand is a diminished 7th chord spelled with the diminished 7th note raised a half step to the dominant or minor 7th.

Where has my understanding gone awry?

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Dec 01 - 02:20 PM

Oh, my head is spinning--Why are we talking about this using an F#dim--it makes it very hard to figure out examples!

First, note that F#-7b5 is a different chord than the Fdim(sorry, but everytime I try to hit the degree sign, it starts AOL Instant Messenger) One has an E, the other is a half step lower--

Second--the use of enharmonic note names is determined by the key that you are in(names of chords, too)--When you are in Ab for instance, the note is called Eb, but in the key of E, it is D#-in the naming of notes, it makes a difference whether the note is in the scale or not--you wouldn't call an D# an Eb in the key of E--

A couple things to keep in mind--at least as far as Leon White is concerned, his concern is that you understand what is expected when certain chord symbols appear in music, and what they indicate--on occasion, the symbols are not precisely right, for one reason or another--For instance, many times you will see a C-Edim-Dminor progression, when what is really wanted is C-C#dim-D minor, a small point, perhaps, but important to say, the person playing the bass line, whose part moves up from C by half steps--

Again, the rule is that the naming of notes and chords is based on the key signature, and it's related keys, so our F#-7b5 may be called an Am6 in another key, and those damned full diminished chords can each have, well, at least eight names each(A guess, I haven't time to figure it out right now)--

The critical thing to understand is that the chords changes really highlight motion in the melody, and the same chord, in a different key, provides a different kind of motion. A move from, say, G to F#dim is a completely different effect than from F to F#dim, and F# to F#dim is different again--

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Dec 01 - 07:32 PM

I didn't mean to cause any damage. <g> The reason I was asking specifically about F#°⁷ was because of a post of mine in the most recent “As Time Goes By” thread. I constructed a diagram for F#°⁷ using the Online Guitar Chord Dictionary and the diagram it returns isn't a valid diagram. While trying to figure out why—I finally decided it was an arbitrary omission—I realized that they always seem to spell F#°⁷ as F# A C Eb and was simply curious as to the choice of names for the note I was calling D#.

A side benefit of the discussion, though, has been a thorough airing of the theory surrounding diminished seventh chords and the naming of notes in odd scales such as F# and Gb.

I think the discussion has been very helpful. Thanks to everyone who added to it and to Rick for starting this thread—although he had no intention of inviting such a discussion as this. <g>

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 01:56 PM

1, 3b, 5b, 7bb is correct for a diminished 7th. But 7bb isn't really close to a note in a 12 tone equal tmperament scale. Either (24/25) squared (double flat) times 15/8 (the 7th of the just intonation scale), or 6/5 cubed times the chord base frequency gives 1.728 times the chord base frequency for the last of the 4 notes of the diminished 7th chord.

In the 12 TET scale one has the 6th at 1.681792 times the chord base frequency, and 6#/7b at 1.781797 time the chord base frequency. The ideal note (1.728) is slightly closer to the 6th than the 6#/7b of the 12 TET scale, but neither choice is very good.

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:28 PM

GUEST,

Interesting as they are,these points step out way beyond the scope of the discussion here, since the method for deriving the value pitch really has nothing to do its place in the chord(though it certainly has a lot to do with its sound in the chord)--

The point that you make, at least by inference, is a good one, though, and that is that that last note in a four note diminished chord does muddy the sound siginificantly--in my playing, as mentioned above, I tend to use what, on reflection is probably best called a -7b5 in place of a diminished chord, and for chord melody arrangements, would use a diminished triad--

Thirds, major and minor, are ambiguous intervals, and a chord that is nothing but minor thirds is going to be a bit dodgy, in the best of circumstances--and on top of that, the flatted fifth is probably the least reliable note in the whole 12 TET scale--

Subject: RE: Scared of Music theory? Faggggedaboudit!
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 12:54 AM

I dropped out of this one early on. Juts have revisited it after talking to someone else. I want to say

THANK YOU TO JON W!! I finally got it, after re-reading your explanation!!*BG*

kat