Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 08:10 PM

Peter T

You asked for some reasonably well-known examples. I've been searching the ABCs I've downloaded and come up with these for starters:

Dorian: Garry Owen, Cuckoos Nest, 17 Come Sunday

Mixolydian: Paddy O'Rafferty, Three Sheepskins, Jolly Beggarman, Morisco

Phrygian: White Cockade, Campbells are Coming, Bessie Bell & Mary Gray

Lydian: I found half-a-dozen tunes, but none that I'd heard of.

Locrian: Couldn't find any.

Let me know if you want any of these posting.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 04:39 PM

Thanks, Snuffy, and all -- I believe that Beethoven's string quartet, Op. 132 has a movement in the Lydian mode. I know that because it was what got me started on this long and modular road 4 short days ago. It would be great to have other tunes. I am still absorbing this information, so who knows what stupid questions may erupt.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 08:49 PM

Here is Beethoven's lydian ditty. I have tried to represent Beethoven's harmonization approximately (very approximately) by means of guitar chords.

X:1
T:Sacred Song in the Lydian Mode
C:Ludwig van Beethoven, from quartet #15, Op. 132.
K:C
M:4/4
L:1/4
C A |"C" G c2 "Am" F |"C" G "F" F F2 | "F" F2 "C" E2 | "Dm" D2 "C" E2 | "F" F2 "G" G2 |
"Am" F2 a d | e f "G" g f | "C" e "Bm" G "C" G2 | "F" A2 "G" c2 | "F" A2 "C" G2 | "F" F2 "G" D2 | "C" E2 z2 |
z2 G "C" C | "Bm" D "C" E "Am" E2 | "Am" c2 "Em" B2 | "C" c2 "F" A2 | "Bm" B2 "C" c2 | "G" d2 g c |
"G" d "C" e f "C" e | "Bm" B "C" c "F" c2 | "F" c2 "Bm" d2 | "C" G2 "F" A2 | "G7" D2 "C" E2 | "F" F2 ||

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM

That thing John Jacob Niles called a dulcimer was nothing like any Appalachian dulcimer I've ever seen. It was more like a guitar that had been cut in half and then had gland trouble. Where did all those strings come from? I had a hard time taking J.J.N. seriously after he claimed so many of the songs he'd written were traditional.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 10:31 PM

Niles's dulcimer-on-steroids might be an eccentric design when viewed from the reference point of the Kentucky, Virginia, and North Carolina families of dulcimer. But he called it a dulcimer, people who heard it thought they were hearing a dulcimer, and so by that roundabout means he publicized the dulcimer.

Frank Warner's dulcimer was made by a North Carolina maker in a traditional hourglass shape.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM

Oh man, Beethoven on guitar. How on earth did you figure out how to do that? Whew.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 05:39 PM

That isn't actually meant to be played on a guitar (even assuming I transcribed all the harmonies right!) It's just that I don't know how to represent part music in ABC other than by writing out each part separately in the fashion of the middle ages and renaissance. Instead of that, I have tried to represent B's harmonization by means of formal guitar chords.

If I were actually intabulating to the guitar, I would probably end up with something that had far fewer chord changes.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 06:33 PM

Haven't bugged out on this, I just have said all I know that would be helpful, if you need anymore, we should start a new thread, this one is now over 100. I do have sheet music for mountain dulcimer tuining for Locrian mode, but it is tune written just for that purpose, and not anything any body would know. If you want it, message me with address. PS--my White Cockade and Cambells are Ionian, would be interested in the Phrygian arrangements. See my e mail at bbc's, or message me.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 07:13 PM

Corrections to the "guitar chords" in the Beethoven piece above:

Measure 7, beat 1: Should be "Dm" instead of "Am"

Measure 10, beat 3: Should be "C" instead of "G"

Measure 22, beat 3: Should be "G7" instead of "Bm"

Measures are numbered by counting the two pick-up beats, "C A", as measure 1.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 12:42 AM

Okiemockbird,

The reason you are having trouble is because you are thinking it rather than hearing it. Modifying it from the major scale will help you to hear it. Harmony is about codifying what a musician hears rather than creating mathematical formulae.

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 12:56 AM

Art,

JJ Niles' dulcimer as I understand it came from a converted cello.

Actually, Jean Ritchie was responsible for popularizing the dulcimer. JJ Niles instrument never caught on. Frank Warner may have known about the dulcimer but most of his songs were sung by him accapella. Jean's influence in promotion and popularization of the dulcimer is indisputable. Susan Reed might have used it along with the harp in some of her earlier performances as did Andrew Rowan Summers. But Jean brought it into the limelight.

Have you heard Mountain Born? I think it's a classic. If I were to give a grammy for best folk album in a long while it would be to Jean for this one.

Snuffy, I don't think White Cockade or Cambells are Coming qualify as the Phrygian mode. They would be Ionian (a gapped scale without the seventh note) or based on a standard major scale.

Phyrigian Mode would be:

1, b2, b3,4, 5, b6, b7 8

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 10:38 AM

White Cockade and several others are circular majors that don't end on the keynote, and look like phrygian if you go by final note and key signature.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM

The file COMBCOD2.TXT on my website now contains stressed note and mode codes for 6124 British Isles old popular and traditional tunes. These are for scales of from 4 to 11 notes and fall into 169 different modes. www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 03:35 PM

Sorcha, check your Mudcat e-mail. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 06:36 PM

Frank,

You could be right about the present modality of these tunes, but it appears they were Phrygian 200 years ago. I got the abcs off the web - the White Cockades from Bruce O's Scarce Songs and the Campbells from (I think) the Nottingham Database. The Campbells has no second (C), and the first Cockade has no fifth (F#), but all three have the seventh (A).

What do you think?

X: 1
T:T055- Hob or Nob [The Campbell's are coming]
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:120
S:Walsh's 'Caledonian Country Dances', IV, c 1744
K:B phrygian
GBe dBG|B2BB2A|GBe dBG|ABAA2B|GBe dBG|B2dg2a|bag fed|B2B~B3::
g2g gab|d2dd2B|g2g gab|e2ee2f|gfe gab|d2dg2a|bag fed|B2B~B3:|]

X:2
T:WHTCOKDA- The White Cockade
S:Rutherford's 2nd selection of 200 CD's, c 1764
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:C|
K:B phrygian
G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|Bd2e|dBc/B/A/G/|BA2G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|
ABg3/2a/|b/a/g/e/ d/e/g/e/|dBB::B/c/|
dBgB|dB2B/c/|dBgB|aA2G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|
ABg3/2 a/|b/a/g/e/ d/e/g/e/|dBB:|]

X:3
T:WHTCOKDB- The Ranting Highland Man
S:Aird's Airs, I, c 1778
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:C
K:B phrygian
G/A/|BBBA/G/|BBBg|BBBA/G/|A/G/A/B/AG/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|
ABgf/g/|ag/f/gf/e/|dBB::B/c/|dBgB|ddde|dc/B/gf/g/|
aAAG/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|ABgf/g/|ag/f/gf/e/|dBB:|]

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 07:16 PM

Those were old ABCs which I hadn't changed to major circular. (Key and mode don't have to be correct for ABCs, they just have to give the right number of sharps or flats on the key signature.) The recent "Sources of Irish Traditional Music" give both phrygian and circular major scorings for the tunes above. The problem is that for circular major tunes that end on the 7th there are also two scorings, and the one that is not major circular is locrian.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 08:59 PM

Much further one, maybe my modes tutorial ought to get a mention if this is to be a permathread:

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/

Covers a LOT more than has been mentioned here, with hundreds of real examples. Centred on Scottish music but goes a lot further than that.