Role of churches in musical careers

Subject: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Marion
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 05:52 PM

I was just thinking - my first band was my church's worship band. The first time I performed on my fiddle, other than in somebody's living room, was at a church service. All of the "gigs" that I've had recently have been at church services.

I know of other people who have played or sung church gigs, though they aren't religious themselves. And it seems to me that when I've read about popular musicians I often see that they got started in the church choir or band.

Would you agree that churches have a big role in providing beginning musicians with chances to perform?

The nice thing about churches is that they have services at least once a week, so there are loads of opportunities to perform. Also, the people there are either listening nicely or singing along - no drunks or hecklers or smokey air - and it's a very non-hostile environment in which to build up your courage for performing. Also, I think generally it isn't necessary to belong to the church's denomination or be a Christian at all, as long as you don't have an aversion to attending a religious service.

Marion

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 07:43 PM

The first time I ever played in a church was in the late 1950s. It was a black church on Chicago's south side but the three musicians were all young white folkies. It was a non-paying gig to help a white southern radical named Don West raise money in the ghetto for his rural south union organizing activities. Don's daughter, Hedy, who later became a Vanguard recording artist, sang with us. I played banjo and my sister, Sally played guitar. We sang songs promoting unionism and civil rights, based on gospel tunes and spirituals, mostly. I wish I could remember more of the details. I loved to sing gospel songs (both black and white) even earlier than that. Eventually, I even embraced what I was singing about!

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 08:12 PM

Yes.

I would never have had the nerve to sing and play in public if it had not been made clear to me that whatever my skill, the Lord and the church wanted me to start things off in acoustic worship music at our church for a new additional weekly service. Now I can see doing this outside of church too, somehow.

And right now this thread is very encouraging to me. I am looking for a bunch of people to join/form praise and worship song teams, and the issue of their own faith has come up. I am committed to musicians first, faith whatever. Discussing this with one group that plays with us, they questioned this. My reply was, I would rather have folkies who can play well, and may not be religious, than the most religious people who cannot play well, for this effort. I figure if the faith side is valid, it will work its way through where it needs to.

~S~

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Jimmy C
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 08:48 PM

Any place and any condition that gives you the opportunity to perform will have a bearing on a career, especially if is a steady gig, like every Sunday at a church service or every Saturday night in a bar. The more you get to play the better you become. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: GUEST,MoohTooh
Date: 28 Jul 00 - 09:33 PM

My Dad being a clergyman, I was raised in the church, and that early choir experience led to occasional guitar church gigs, and special services of one kind or another. Without it I might not ever of had the nerve to play/sing in public, though the piano lessons, and singing at home was a huge influence...MoohTooh (Mooh elsewhere than at home).

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 05:20 AM

Just look at the list of great singers both blues, folk, jazz and pop who started off singing gospel in the choir.

Where else do you get a chance to yell your head off in front of other people? In my case, it was the place I learned to operate the mike stands and got a City & Guilds in Music Stands....

LTS

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Bagpuss
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 05:50 AM

I started in a church group too - though I *am* sort of religious myself. Personally I could never understand non religious people wanting to play in a church group. I always find the songs are so much more beautiful if you really believe in what you are singing - you can really put your soul into it.

Thats not to say I think non religious people *shouldn't* play in church groups, just that I could never understand why they would want to.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: bbc
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 08:32 AM

Add me to the list. Even though I've enjoyed folk music for 12+ years now, my only singing had been at church till last week. I had been in choirs from childhood & did some specials in the past couple of years. This past year, Duane D., davidmc24, & I were a part of a praise group in our church & have sung on stage in a few churches & Christian coffeehouses. A week ago Saturday, I broke out! Duane & I were visiting in Maine & went to Naemanson's monthly coffeehouse, the Mocha Cafe, at the Chocolate Church in Bath, Maine, USA. I had just started playing autoharp a week before. We signed up for open mic & performed 2 songs. It was really fun! BTW, we got to meet kendall, too, but I'm putting that in another thread!

bbc

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Susan from California
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 12:16 PM

I have been singing in church since I was in third grade (about 7 years old). After a long absence, I started singing in church again about 7 years ago. I rarely sing publically elsewhere, and I am still really nervous when I do--church or elsewhere. I find it easiest, if doing a solo or duet-- to sing original stuff, or obscure, unknown songs so that nobody can tell if I make a big mistake!

One of these days, when we get some extra $$ we are going to buy some equipment and take our show on the road. That is a definate advantage to singing at church! Almost all of them have good sound systems, and that cuts down on the costs.

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: black walnut
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 01:51 PM

absolutely....at the age of 12, i played piano for a choir making a record album, and all through my teens played gospel piano for choirs and services in a baptist church. even into my university years, it was belonging to monstrous young people's groups who sang and sang and sang which fed my love for I, IV, V....

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: oggie
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM

My favourite piece of English music trivia - Which rock and roll guitarist performed at Queen Elizabeth's corronation at Westminster Abbey?

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Escamillo
Date: 29 Jul 00 - 10:19 PM

Definitely, churches make one of the fundamental basis of most careers (ask to Johann Sebastian). It may be interesting for religious people to know that many non-religious as myself, very deeply enjoy singing at the church, from hymns and simple songs to symphonic masterworks. I sang many times, in the choir and as soloist in weddings, and every time I find it a most enriching experience, and a profound emotion that lasts for months. If not an emotion based on faith, I guess it is based on the most sincere comunion of feelings we may find between singer or instruments player and the audience. Those faces I see in the church can´t be found in other places. And surely, there will always be somebody who can forgive us for our mistakes :)
Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: alison
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 01:14 AM

As kids we went along to an organisation called Junior CE (Christian endeavour).... where we were encouraged to play whatever instruments we were learning (we were all betwenn 6 - 16 I think)... every year all the area had a talent contest where we got to play and won prizes.. great for building confidence and playing at a young age.

At first we were allowed to play whatever pieces we wanted, then they changed the rules so that it had to be a religious piece.

That led onto accompanying choirs (I was musical director at the age of 11..), and playing church organ when necessary... all great experiences. there's nothing like sitting in a sunken organ pit with a real pipe organ, and hearing the volume swelling up from the congregation behind you....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 01:42 AM

Funny that, Alison - I have the opposite - I've sung in choirs for over 2/3rds of my life, starting when I was 9. When I got into folk music, the tremendous kick was doing stuff unaccompanied and solo - usually only got to do the first verse of 'Once in royal David's city' at Christmas. To sing in a folk club, to start a song that everyone knows and to have them all join in, freely, when and wherever they wanted, without a choirmaster conducting, that was sheer bliss. Even now, I have to chuck in a traddy chorus just to get the buzz....

But I know what you mean about the organ - nothing can go from almost silent to blast your eardrums out with such beauty.

LTS

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: alison
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 02:00 AM

Hi Liz,

I'm not into choirs in a big way now.. but the organising and arranging that I learnt how to do is beneficial when you're working with a band.

The first time I sang alone was in a church choir when their soprano was sick and they needed someone to do a verse of "The Angel Gabriel"... up until then my mum was convinced that I didn't sing, (she had just never heard me - my sister was the singer)... she heard this strange voice singing and turned round to see who it was..... the look on her face when she saw me was priceles... hahaha

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 02:04 AM

Yeah,. great when that happens!!! I did something similar with 'Once in royal...' Last time my dad ever went to church for something that wasn't hatched, matched or dispatched.....

We upped and did Gonoud's Ave Maria one Sunday - scared the visiting vicar out of his chausible! Just me and the organ - that was fun!! Of course, the following week I was at Towersey singing rude songs in the barn. Life is full of little contrasts. The second song I ever sang in a public folk club was ... "suggestive". Maybe I'll do it again this Towersey, just for the hell of it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Bagpuss
Date: 30 Jul 00 - 06:58 AM

Alison, thats weird. The first thing I ever sang solo was The Angel Gabriel too!

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: alison
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 02:51 AM

twilight zone music starts up... do do do do... do do do do... *grin*....

great tune though isn't it???

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Gervase
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 05:21 AM

Ah, Gounod.
Like the Holst thread, Gounod is one of those desert island composers. His Mass for St Cecilia's Day has to be one of my all time faves - I've always wanted the Sanctus at my funeral, but I won't be around the hear it. Had it at one of the weddings sung by a friend, but I was busy getting a half-time pep-talk from the rector in the vestry at the time, so I missed that as well.
I'm not conventionally religious, but there's something about the atmosphere of a church that makes you want to really sing out (though in country churches this can be awkward, where there's a congregation of six and they all sing in that unique key called 'little old lady', tuned higher than a gnat's g-string).

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Marion
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:38 PM

Thanks to everyone who has answered so far.

Praise, I have a couple of comments as a semi-Christian (or Christian-practicing agnostic, or pacifist strongly influenced by Jesus Christ... I haven't quite worked out what to call myself).

I would agree with your judgement that musicians of whatever faith should be sought out for your worship band - as long as you don't put too much emphasis on advanced skills and leave out somebody who wants to offer his/her humble I, IV, and V to God.

I think that opening the band/choir to non-Christian musicians can be a form of outreach. I'm not suggesting that it should be a cunning strategy for proselytization; but that it would be a form of hospitality, and of service: meeting people's needs. Just as AA groups need meeting places and a lot of churches lend their halls as an act of hospitality, beginning musicians need opportunities to perform and lending them your microphones would be a hospitable act. I hope this will be encouraging to you.

Another comment which may or may not be encouraging to you, but I feel I should mention; when I'm playing a gig at church, it's just a gig, not an offering to God. When I go to mass normally I enter into the spirit of the worship as much as possible, but when I'm playing music, I'm so wrapped up in performing my piece properly, and being in synch with the organ, that I'm too distracted to try to make it an act of worship. So for me at least, my faith or lack of it is irrelevant to my music because at the moment I'm only a musician. It might be different if I were a singer or if I were a good enough musician to play without having to concentrate fiercely.

One other thing; in the worship band I mentioned, our lead guitar was a priest so we called ourselves "Father Jim and the Flock." I always thought that was a pretty cool name.

Marion

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Downeast Bob
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 01:51 PM

One of the most exciting things I've ever done musically was leading "Lord of the Dance" on a 5-string banjo on Easter Sunday in the oldest Catholic church in Maine. This was done at the recessional, just before people left. Before it ended, everybody was singing, guitars, banjo and tambourine were cutting loose and a 10-year-old was ringing the 200-year-old Paul Revere bell in celebration of the resurrection. I sang my heart out. I bet a lot of you non-Catholics don't believe that kind of thing happens very often in Catholic churches. You are right.

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: MMario
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 02:00 PM

If you want a strange experience, try performing a renaissance faire style "pub sing" in a church as a fund raiser!

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:13 PM

Marion - my vicar calls me the tame pagan, and my pagan friends call me their pet Christian (or 'the sacrifice' but I think that's just their little joke.......?) - I have a lot of trouble treating certain church services as worship because I'm usually looking up the next hymn/psalm/strange thing to sing when it all goes quiet.... That's why I took up being an Eucharistic Minister, so I do actually get to concentrate on not singing for about 10 minutes. Plus I get to finish up any wine not used..... hic! It doesn't matter what you are feeling, and it doesn't matter which god is watching, if you do what you do well, then that is all that matters.

LTS

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:43 PM

There is always young Charlotte.....

What's the answer Oggie? I give up.

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: oggie
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 01:40 PM

And the lucky guitarist was...... Keith Richard

He was then a Chorister at Westminster Abbey and was reputed to be one of the finest treble voices of his generation!

When asked what it taught him, other than the ability to sight read fiendishly difficult music, he replied that all careers are finite, as a treble one day you open your mouth, your voice has broken and that's it.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 05:27 PM

The first music I learned to read was Gregorian Chant when I was an altar boy. When I was older they got my brother and I involved in a folk mass. We were the only two musicians with a sense of rhythm. The group I perform with now - 7 members - sings in services { Methodist } about 5 or 6 times a year and we're asked to perform at meetings, confrences, and we do a Christmas concert at the lighting of our tree. We've been known to introduce a song by telling the audience that we love the song even if we don't agree with the theology contained in it. Has anyone else had to do that?? The group is called the Crossroad Singers but when just the four musicians perform without our other three singers we go by the name "Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Bubba". We're excited about opening for Livingston Taylor at a church coffeehouse next month.

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Aug 00 - 07:31 PM

Marion,

That was lovely! Thank you. We have had some, um, uh.... very dedicated... ummm... "non-professionals" playing for the last three years or so, doing the best job possible with all the joy and heart we could pour out... I would have to count myself in with that group...!!!! We do want to "up" the quality though, with people committed to (Oh my God!) actually REHEARSING!!! Or at least knowing the melody! I can't carry it alone any more!!! (Poor me, LOL, "Jesus help meeeeee!")

What we have been doing is holding a monthly open jam, out of which flows the nursing home ministry, hymns and non-hymns. And anyone who wants to, comes along to share the performing and songleading there. Not to mention shlepping amps.

I am very encouraged by what you said about incoporating new players, regardless of religious commitment. Thanks!

And this one is for anybody- our congregation is not endowed with pickers (we've looked in all the closets). How do I motivate people in the community tio play with us, when we can't pay them? Most of the confident ones are already on the praise and worship teams at other churches, where they are members. How do I recruit among the small number of pro's and semi-pro's who are fairly anti-church???? ("Mudcat, help meeeeeee!")

~S~

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: GUEST,Ely
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 02:27 AM

I'm a Quaker--we're not allowed to sing in church. Well, we do it sometimes for fun after Meeting, but never as part of worship (the religion is 350 years old and put out its first hymnal in 1996). I hang out on Saturdays with Baptists and learn their songs. So many gospel songs have such great melodies. I don't feel comfortable singing all of them, though, even though I've never been very religious. I guess my upbringing caught up with me after all.

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 02:34 AM

Ely - there are people who sing in churches who could learn a lot from the Quaker tradition....

There is an apt poem about a swan singing once before it dies, there are some who would be wise to emulate it, it may be Ogden Nash, but I can't get to the book to get the correct quote, but I'm sure one of you will come up with it....

There is the reverse of course, we corrupted many a chorister to come along to the folk club, but we also got a couple of folkies to join the choir too!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: GUEST,guest, smasher
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 04:33 AM

Has anyone noticed that almost everyone posting here is religeous? Growing up in the bible belt, I knew many fine people who were also religeous. When someone starts to talk about it though, look to see where they're hiding the knife.

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Marion
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 12:18 PM

Small world, Smasher... I've known some fine people who were also paranoid.

Praise, I might try contacting music teachers in your city, and asking if they can hook you up with students who would be ready to do some performing, or would profit from being in a band scenario.

It's probably not useful to try to recruit players who are actually "anti-church". You wouldn't volunteer to sing at a benefit concert for a cause you deeply disagreed with, would you?

But it seems like there are a lot of people who are neither actively religious nor anti-religious, and the law of averages suggests that some of them are competent musicians. And I would imagine that the ways to find them are the same ways one normally finds other musicians to work with: sessions and song circles, networking, advertising at music stores.

Wesley, "Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Bubba"... I love it.

LTS: I know the poem you mean, but I can't get the exact words either. But I remember it wasn't wished that some would emulate the swans but rather that they would "die before they sing."

However, I wouldn't want to encourage anybody in congregation to emulate a Quaker or a swan, no matter how well or badly they sing - if they're butchering the song loudly enough that I can hear it, I'm just glad that they're enthusiastic enough to be singing that loud. I live in a community for people with mental disabilities (L'Arche) and there is a gentleman I normally accompany to church whose love for the mass and for music is very deep. Whenever there is music, he joins in at full voice; if it's a song he knows, he sings the emphasized words a couple of seconds after the rest of us do, and if he doesn't know the song, he makes up melody and words as he goes along. He sounds terrible, but he's singing to God and I hardly ever quiet him. Maybe it's a cliche to point out that the good book says "Make a joyful noise unto the Lord", but that's what it says.

(Once when we were supposed to be singing "Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world" the man I mentioned was singing "Lamb of God, I kill you with my hands...") and that was a time when I asked him to be quieter. :)

Marion

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 12:40 PM

Smasher,

I like to lock up the knives. Then they're out of reach should anyone grab for it in the midst of heated argument.

~S~

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: jeffp
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 12:54 PM

Years ago, I sang in the church choir and played in a rock-and-roll band that practiced Sunday afternoons. My friend said he could always tell when the choir performed in the morning because my voice was already warmed up when I showed up for practice. I also gained about 3 semitones at either end of my range during that period. Probably time to find a choir again.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: alison
Date: 02 Aug 00 - 09:30 PM

"swans sing before they die, - t'were no bad thing
should certain persons die before they sing"

S.T. Coleridge

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Aug 00 - 12:54 AM

Thanks, all, that's the jobby! Boy have I known a few like that!! Trouble is, at least 4 of them have been in the same choir/music group as me!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: Marion
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 11:32 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:20 AM

Golly, what a year it's been. Glad to see this one back.

~Susan (AKA Praise)

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 11:30 AM

Related thread:

Can you sing 'Gospel' without Belief?

~S~

Subject: RE: Role of churches in musical careers
From: fat B****rd
Date: 20 Jun 01 - 02:03 AM

Three local church-run youth clubs provided a gig for the bloody awful "beat" groups which were continually breaking up and reforming in early sixties Cleethorpes.While not a worshipper I must admit that without these halls etc there would have been nowhere for young Beatsters to play. I did let myself be persuaded to play Caiphas in Beaconthorpe Methodist Church's Easter play in 1963.