I still don't think I'm getting through.

I agree George that it's asking for trouble to let copyright define what Traditional means, but we are talking about product labels here, and writing the wrong thing on the tin can lead to digestion problems.

Let me explain. Take an extreme and not very good example: (This works better with Fiddlers Green, but we'll use Empty Handed for now).

Empty Handed is copyright GP. Not Trad. No dispute.

But if we allow that the adoption of a song by a community who make changes through natural attrition can re-define a song as traditional, then Empty Handed could become Trad - like this:

Say someone in Tasmania hears it at a singaround, but the singer forgot to mention you wrote it. He has an mp3 recorder on the table. Later, he asks a third party if it's trad. Oh yes, says the chum (because he's of Shimrod's opinion), I've heard lots of versions of that, and it's been around for ages. I think it's called 'It's not the setting sun.' Good, goes the singer. I'll put it on my next CD. And he does - as "Setting Sun (Trad).' Then you hear of it - oy, says you, that's my song. Nah, goes the singer - it's trad.

OK extreme example, but it's happened to Fiddlers Green, Galway Farmer, Ride On, Athenry etc etc etc.

Why? Because of this muddle about what Trad means.

That's why we need to sort it out.

It's no good each side just saying - the other lot are wrong, which is what keeps happening on this thread. We DO have a problem, Houston.

The only way to solve it is to change the language, so that the single word used to describe the origin of a song is not open to misinterpretation.

At the moment 'folk' songs fall into four broad categories.

1) Anon, passed down orally, public ownership. (Called Trad by all). EG Matty Groves.

2) Known writer, passed down orally, public ownership. (Called Trad by most - but should be credited with the writer's name - which doesn't always happen). EG Happy Birthday

3) Writer known by some but not all, being passed around a lot and adopted by communities etc, copyright. (Called Trad by a few who feel that Traditional merely means that a process is happening, or that a certain sound or style is enough to make it trad). EG Fiddlers Green.

4) Known writer, copyright (Not usually called Trad - but often called Folk, whic could lead to 3) in future). EG Empty Handed.

Oh and

5) Known writer, copyright (wrongly accredited as Trad) EG The White Hare - and others in the past.

See what I mean?

Tradional is a sippery slope.