OK Ruth - let's do away with romanticised stereotypes, but we still need definitions. As a number of my travelling relatives live just down the way from the Brazils, I guess I know the first definition. As to the rest, how does "band of itinerant criminals" grab you? 'Cos I for one am sick of them and the harm they do to the travelling community. I know of unofficial travellers' camps in Kent, established for years, where the police call regularly - for a cup of tea. I have friends and family who are storytellers, musicians, showmen, horse traders, used car dealers and in all probability the biggest rogues unhung, all making a living without much harm to their fellow man. I also know of falsely registered motor vehicles, theft, intimidation and communities feeling threatened by mobile criminals. One size of persecuted minority does not fit all. The real crime is that things like planning permission seem to be automatically denied to the likes of the Brazils, principally because we still haven't learned that housing of whatever description should be about people's needs rather than investment and speculation. Oh, and prejudice.