Phew- what a hornets' nest. I don't have time to do more than skim through all these posts but here goes with my responses:

"A folk club now is just that....a "club" for people...a place where a few local people get together with their friends to relax and share in a common interest. If they have a more informal attitude to the music than you do, that may bother you, but if you want to be part of that scene then you either have to put up with it, or else BECOME the change you wish to see. In other words, YOU learn to play some stuff really well, without screwing up any of it, and get up there onstage and do that. It should give you much satisfaction, and it should entertain other people as well. You will be personally building the future for the kind of folk club you want."

That's what I do- perform to the best of my ability.

"You have to understand that after a certain age when friends get together with other friends they may become a lot less demanding of performance perfection than they were in the days of youthful ambition."

Fine- if it's just friends getting together with friends. But a music venue that charges the public for admission?

"Try going to a major folk festival in the summer. You will see some absolutely amazingly good performances there, I guarantee it."

I went to three festivals this summer, all of them excellent, including the "club" stages. That's how I'd like folk clubs to be. Does anyone disagree?

"Folk clubs will change, as they have over the years already."

I'm frequently told by people who were around when it was all happening of the golden age of folk when the clubs were packed and you had to audition to get a floor spot. That was before my time, but wouldn't everyone like it to be like that now? I would.

"Elvis Presley forgot the words to: are you lonesome tonight,the Beatles were frequently out of tune,when they played in Hamburg, as were The Rolling Stones on occasions in their early days,the Dave Clark Five, had a drummer who[well the less said the better],many pop groups of the sixties could not be heard live,because of the screaming[and a good job too]."

Yes, we all make mistakes, and there have been instances of artists in all fields going a long way on a little talent. However, I'm sure that all the people described above rehearsed and did their best. Anyway, you can't use the odd poor performance by one artist to justify atrocious singing by someone else.

"Many of the pop covers bands are playing crap [just my opinion]. I would rather hear folk music performed not very well, than a professional competent pop covers band."

I wouldn't. I don't like listening to crap singers who can't be bothered to learn a song before they try to perform it.

"But some clubs are thriving."

Yes, they are. I've visited about 20 clubs since I got involved in folk music and I'd say that about 5 of them are doing well. They're the ones who have good floor singers, thereby being able to book good guests, who bring in audiences, who pay money wo book more guests and keep the club going. Higher standard floorsingers also attract other singers of the same calibre; I've usually found that most of the singers in any venue are about the same level.

"Can't see where sing arounds/sessions come into it so lets start off by missing those out. Different animal. Faye never mentioned them."

I've had many an enjoyable night at a singaround, and one of the most thriving clubs that I attended has nothing but singarounds- it doesn't book guests. The standard there is mostly excellent. I accept that singarounds are different though I always rehearse a song to the same level regardless of where I sing it. They're a great place to start out, but there's no excuse for joining in one if you can't be bothered to rehearse what you sing. Why not do so anyway- do people who don't bother really have so little respect for their audience, the music and themselves?

"Don't give up on the music though because of one bad experience - there are far too many good ones to go around to compensate. Get into the festival scene - IMHO far more rewarding."

You're right about festivals- see my other comment. And I'm certainly not giving up! The sad thing about the demise of the clubs, though, is that for newcomers, festivals and other venues like arts centres are virtually impossible to get into as performers.

"It's a pretty simple riposte. If your friends are so great, why aren't they stars?"

Because they're not musicians. They are paying members of an audience. That gives them the right to form an opinion about what they're paying for. If I go and see the Royal Shakespeare Company I'm entitled to say whether I think they're good or bad- I don't have to be an actor myself to do so.

"Faye is generalising from the particular,a big mistake."

Never trust people who generalise! I was referring to a particular club, but I've seen this kind of thing all too often at other ones.

"Faye... if you think you know better, put your time and energy and possibly your own money) where your mouth is and set up a folk club the way you think they should be."

Why the hell should I? My point is that if you pay to be entertained anywhere (oops, the e-word just slipped in), you should not have to put up with unrehearsed crap. If there is a virtue in the sort of club that encourages people to drift on stage and sing any old half-remembered song that takes their fancy on the spur of the moment, you'll have to explain it to me, 'cos I'm *****d if I can see it.

To the various people who posted on the topic of crib sheet; I don't use them but I've no objection to those who do, if it helps. When I saw Bellowhead live most of them were reading from scores and it made not a whit of difference to the audience's appreciation.

I must go now- I'll come back to this when I can. Thanks to all of you for your views.