Thank goodness I stepped in with a different point of view or this thread would have bogged down and gone no where.

Amos, I didn't see any quote marks around the sayings which you attributed to Mr. Cheney. Nor could I find them anywhere on the net. Perhaps you should cite your source(s).

LH you are absolutely correct about the product torture illicits. You can make just about anybody say anything you want by applying torture. At best it would be used to confirm information already known or flesh out what is already known. It might also be used as an indirect method of getting information by not asking the direct questions. I would be most interested to learn, as Cheney has indicated, exactly what was extracted from those prisoners and how it helped to protect us from further attacks.

As a personal note, I do not believe that I could ever knowingly torture anyone. Who would want to live their life with a constant memory of having done something like that? By the same token I could not live with myself if I decided to blow up a building and kill a lot of innocent folks because of their race or choice of religion. I would, however, use whatever force is necessary and sufficient to protect the innocent and the freedoms that are our human rights.

So many here on the Mudcat appear to subscribe to the ethic that the situation determines what action (if any)should be taken in response to a given condition: situation ethics. But when something like the question of torture comes up suddenly everybody has a deontological point of view. What? There are absolutes?

I would prefer that our nation NEVER resort to torture. That we could always take the high road but showing all your cards is quite a handicap in a game where human lives are at stake. This is exactly what our enemies want, division and moral quandaries as they believe this will weaken and divide their enemy (us). They have little or no moral compunction about the acts of terror they are willing to perpetrate. What's your answer to defending this nation or any free people or democracy? Give up? Surrender? If we all became Muslims do you think that would deter these haters? They are killing their own, enslaving women, torturing and beheading anyone who disagrees with them. They make the Nazis look like pikers as far as their vehemence goes, and their global ambitions. I have not personally reached a pat conclusion on this question of torture but I hope and believe that those whose duty it is to know and protect the citizenry are acting with whatever degree of moral restraint is possible and still be effective in that duty.

Barry, no nation has lasted. Period.

Amos, no one is above the law? Just by way of example, California citizens have asserted in a couple of elections now that marriage is traditionally and legally only between a man and a woman. This was a matter of the state's constitution. This is a democracy and the will of the people must prevail and yet three justices of the State Supreme court rose above the law and overturned the will of the people. You may or may not agree with that law but it was and is the will of the people. I could go on to other example such as Second Amendment rights, etc. but I hope you get my point.