Subject: RE: Rbt Fleming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM

Professor Bobsong, I apologize for being so harsh on the frailty of our American past. Please note that I understand and forgive Americas past and present injustices. I take solace in knowing that God had to get Africans to America, kicking and screaming; whether they wanted to or not, in order to give America some flavor or season to taste.

Maybe you are part of that lingering group of people who fill that they must avenge their crest of honor. I want to debate obvious historical facts in lieu of some dating discrepancies. However, after all meager words are spoken to discount Robert Fleming¡¦s great efforts to bring his music invention into American music culture, let us not forget that I am simply here to convey an obvious major fact: that during the 18th century, support for African American anything was about as vigilant as a snowflake in hell; and my friend those are terrible odds.

BEST REGARDS
AALDS



Bob wrote
AALDS needs to read what was quoted from "Lurker" above. As for blacks and invention-funding, some got it and some didn't, some inventions were trivial, some were great, some caught on, some didn't.

AALDS Reply
Okay, may I ask a question since I am the student and you the professor? Sir, how many white inventors in American history, during the 18th century received a loan or investment or joint partnership, from an African American to help them with their invention in Robert Fleming¡¦s times?



Bob wrote
and many were stolen by richer or less-honest people.

AALDS Reply
Now you are cooking! However let us get a brighter picture with this question. Sir, how many inventions were stolen by rich or less honest African American in Robert Fleming times?




Bob wrote
and the race of any of the people in those categories was not the issue.

AALDS Reply
Okay, this is some kind (sic) joke right?



Bob wrote
Did blacks get robbed of their ideas? Yes. Did ALL blacks get robbed of their ideas? Hell, no.

AALDS Reply
I am caught off guard to know that you would even cite a belief that African Americans were robbed of their concepts ending with your simple ¡§yes¡¨.
But, were they all robbed, I am assuming by the rich or less honest people in Robert Fleming¡¦s Time? You wrote a healthy ¡§hell no!¡¨ Well, did Mr. Fleming squeeze through Jim Crow¡¦s good grace, not being robbed of his ideas? Well I don¡¦t know but because Melrose City Hall and their libraries can¡¦t even find a pinch of his history it suggests something went terribly wrong.




Bob wrote
And AALDS has Fleming's "awesome awesome concept [ ] in competitions (sic) with his native invention of the Banjo. .   

AALDS Reply
Okay, agan to drive my only point here¡Khow many African American minstrel shows in the 18th century, that you know of, were exploiting a concept with painted white faces in principal, that could promote the sales of said stolen concepts from the rich or less honest individuals (white man).   And Bob thanks for the free class on the history and origin of the American Banjo. Don¡¦t forget the gory details¡K banjo sales went up over 50 percent because of those minstrel shows, which of course debased African America¡Xhorribly, even ¡§Martni¡¨ was probably affected.













Bob wrote
And, given the description of Fleming's invention, I doubt it was even an "awesome concept."

AALDS Reply
Awesome is indicative of profoundness, artistry, and uniqueness, all of which describe Mr. Fleming¡¦s courage and innovation during a era of institutionalized prejudice that threatened and killed people like Mr. Fleming. Evidently there is some profoundness with Mr. Fleming who himself never made the claim that he invented the first guitar but, yet we are in 2009 clearing up some accusations about him one hundred years later.




Bob wrote
The latter half of the 19th century was a time of great commercial innovation, and instruments combining concepts such as guitar fingering plus banjo heads (or banjo-anythings, really -- mandolin, ukes [later], guitar, or [who knows?] violini) were rife.

AALDS Reply
Was it an African American scholar who said beauty is in the eyes of the beholder (maybe not) ļ Well we can definitely say that the beholders in the music industry in the latter half of the 19th century were mainly the eyes of the rich and less honest people (white man). Again, Professor Bob, how many African American musical inventors, that you know of, were involved in the structuring of commercial innovations in those time? Also were they compensated properly?






Bob wrote
Heck, if Fleming had met the Marx Brothers (no, the makers of the ukelin, Hawaiian Tremeloa, Marxophone, etc., not the comedy act), he might even have gotten financing.

AALDS Reply
One thing we know for sure is that African musicians and luthiers were plentiful in those times. The ability to reach out a helpful hand was within the caress of any Guitar Company executive including the Marx Brothers.
\

Bob wrote
Was the late 19th Century hard on blacks? Yes, for sure

AALDS Reply
May, I ask the statistic severity of how hard it was?



Bob wrote
The end of Reconstruction brought on the Ku Klux Klan, Jim-Crow laws, "Coon" songs, and black flight to Northern cities were all part of that period.

AALDS Reply
Okay, I¡¦m convinced, you got me; maybe I was wrong in assuming that Robert Fleming Jr didn¡¦t have a commercial chance in succeedingƒº.




Bob wrote
But to assume that all black inventors had no chance is to ignore evidence to the contrary, as well as to ignore the fact that Fleming's "improvements" to the guitar were not so very "improving."

AALDS Reply
Bob, I really want to believe that there was a ghost of chance for Mr. Fleming concepts to succeed fairly. So I will not as you stated, ¡§ignore evidence to the contrary¡¨. Now please anybody give one piece of evidence where a African American music instrument concept was illuminated, supported, and profitable in Robert Fleming times, so that I can¡¦t ignore it :-)




Bob wrote
It is not necessary to find a conspiracy when simple facts of commercial life will suffice to explain Mr. Fleming's commercial failure.

AALDS Reply
Yeah, what about those millions of Ku Klux Klan, Jim-Crow supporters, and ¡§Coon" songs writers you mention who were rich and less honest business owners. Thank you but I¡¦ll find it necessary to gravitate toward conspiracy unless we can find one successful African American guitar inventor from Robert Flemin¡¦s times.



Bob wrote
And trust-funds for inventors weren't even there for white inventors.

AALDS Reply
Okay. trust fund is being used improperly here. Investment funds first. then after the business succeed if it succeed we leave a T-Fund to the next Christopher Martin to operate the business




Bob wrote
That development in commercial product financing didn't come till probably the 1960s (if then).

AALDS Reply
Right again Bob, I¡¦m sorry I meant the CIBACOS funds (Can I Borrow A Cup Of Sugar).   Bob, come on man even though some people built their business from their own personal wealth; I am sure there were inventors less fortunate who had to borrow from someone. Even the Bible mentions the practice of lending and borrowing before Christ.




Bob wrote
I don't know why I got carried away, but I did. So sue me.

AALDS Reply
Bob, Bob, Bob, you got carried away because you needed to defend your ancestral honor. Are you a musician? Have you ever thought of buying a guitar from Master luthier Woody Phifer. He is African American and one of the best builders on the planet. We are few but we need your support to help us succeed. We can go back and forth on these chat lines forever but why don¡¦t you try making a difference in the 21st century. Google ¡§WOODY PHIFER¡¨.