Shambles, I've been fascinated by this thread because as an elementary music teacher and a director of a women's chorus I'm constantly in the thick of the debates around reading music or just learning to play it ("ear before eye" or vice versa). My grownups have taught me a lot about what a terrible job music education in the schools has done over the last few generations, together with the professionalization of music via the media. Anyway, these days I always immerse the kids in discovering their "inner ear" as I call it, having them sing, move, play, etc. and discover their capabilities before starting them on reading. When we do begin reading, I use parts of 2 popular methods of teaching (Orff and Kodaly) which ease them into reading almost without knowing it. The goal is that by the end of grade 5 they can read a scale, understand a few chords (like how C, F &G go together), know about bass and treble clef, and can sing in 2 part harmony and play 3 & 4 part polyrhythms. I don't have time to teach them all guitar or another accompanying instrument but I try to get them feeling that they were born musical. I also have to reprogram their parents. I'm SICK of hearing, "Oh, none of us are musical. We can't sing a note!" If you believe that, it's likely to become true. In my women's chorus, half the time is spent dealing with that old baggage. We read no notes at all in rehearsal; I teach by rote and arrange almost all the music myself; those who beg me can purchase the sheet music but may not bring it to rehearsal. We sing mostly unaccompanied, and with them my goal is to get them singing and listening. There are now over 6 women's choruses in northern New England, most of them with over 100 members. Mine is limited to 50 due to lack of rehearsal space and I have a waiting list that's growing all the time. There's such a desire to sing in the general population; to refer to the Courage threads, maybe this can be the beginning. I have some middle schoolers in my chorus; I hope someday to not have to teach full time and then I plan to have kids and teen choruses as well. Sorry to go on and on, but this whole issue is a biggie. Get the people making music, and then add literacy for those who can. But make the music part of their lives by any means possible!!!