Jack the Sailor - I admit stereotyping goes both ways (read the fourth sentence in my last post), but I dont think I did so here. I said that "some men can say "no thanks" but others have to beat the gay guy to a pulp" - surely you do not consider that stereotyping? I'm interested in the difference between these two responses,and not in maligning either type of man. MTed, a good point about beatings "after consensual sex" I think your other points good also.