Whoops, I had decided this thread had about reached the end of its life, so I apologise for sending a blank message and restarting it. But now that I have, one final word from me!

Fionn said each individual Catholic needs to decide what their relationship to the Church is - well fair enough, DmG, but for my money anyone who stays within the fold does so knowing full well what kind of a hierarchy they've got. Since catholics by definition believe in God, why not settle for a relationship with God and let the churh take a back seat?

I agree - that is precisely the sort of decision they may have to make. But many peoples direct experience is more like SINSULLs opening paragraphs. Also, because of the real world we live in, many Catholics' social lives are caught up in this, and leaving the Church could involve, to a greater or lessor extent, cutting themselves off from some long standing friendships when their own local Church may be entirely innocent. It is not easy.

Dicho: I said individual Catholics must decide their relationship with the Church not with God. I reckon I have escaped the Inquistion on this one, but no doubt they can get me for something else!