And yet by the time of the American Civil War, importation of African slaves had stopped, had it not? Monroe's idea of establishing an African nation where African slaves could be returned to Africa after gaining their manumission papers resulted in Liberia (and its capital Monrovia). Once they system was in place were there any real options or ways of removing it given that the system was based upon a direct servitude organization - that is - the owners generally living on the same estates as the slave - and not miles away.

There are significant differences in the slave experience between Haiti (French) the West Indies (British) and the US. Haiti saw massive (and bloody) upheavals more than once before slavery was abolished there - mostly during the "enlightenment" period and up through the Fr. Revolution, through early Napoleonic times. Jamaica had more than one slave rebellion as well, typically put down with "efficiency". The difference between these two, and the US, was that when Britain outlawed slavery and actively discouraged the slave trade, the estates changed their proceedures, the military enforced the rule of law (This includes several accounts I've read of explaining to the ex-slaves that not only were they no longer slaves, they were subjects of the Crown and entitled to all the protections that meant, and enforcing it with the threat of the bayonet at the worst, or arrest and imprisonment at the least.)

Now then, there were several Americans who disliked the notion of slavery, even through their postion depended upon it. Madison's father-in-law (Dolly's father) bankrupted himself after freeing his slaves, then found he could not run his estates anymore without them. This gave the example to Madison that a gentle hand was better than no hand at all - that is, his policy was to not brutalize slaves, nor to sell off slaves, particularly if they had a family. If he bought one slave, he would buy their entire family. He made a point of educating them, and when possible, freed them after they had been educated or were otherwise able to establish themselves in a trade. Not ideal by today's standards, yet at the time, about the best one could hope for.

Likewise Robert Lee refused to sell the slaves inherited from his father-in-law's estate, even though it was deeply in debt. Instead, he made it his policy to train those that showed promise in specific employable trades, then freed them and their families and helped to get them established. He accepted grueling, and thankless, postings in order to get the higher pay from being in the field than he would have from half-pay while at home, or positions without the field-pay. Doing so, he managed to pay off the massive debts incurred by his wife's family - saving their honor, and his own. While he was not sure of the equality of the Black man, a common view of most educated whites in the US (and most of the world for that matter), he was concerned that freeing them would lead them to the decadence of large cities (New York, Philadelphia, Boston) where they would compete on un-equal footings for the lowest positions there were. Again, by today's Western standards, it was a terrible thing to do - enslave someone, for the time, he was lambasted as foolish for not selling off the "property" that would have had him out of debt easily, instead of strugling to be debt free by 1860.

At the same time, it WAS a different world. Was slavery worse than transportation to Australia for seven years hard labour for stealing to feed your family? Don't know.

One final thing, then I'll end this rant. Slavery, literal and figurative, exists today in more than one place in the world. It has existed in the literal sense throughout recorded history. The last 200 years (roughly) of attempts to eliminate slavery, or at least limit it, has been a blip in the last 4,000 years. Doesn't make it right - its just an "is" thing.

Now I expect I'll be lambasted by folks who don't like what I had to say, no matter how true it was. Kind of like I was in the first of the terrorism threads last September. Somethings just work in specific ways, no matter how much we don't like it.

Oh, Madison's and Lee's records and accounts are available for research - not just their memoirs. Their journals and papers from the time are far more illuminating than their later writings looking back. I've always found them fascinating - probably the most from their respective eras.

Have a day - Pete