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The Mudcat Cafesj

User Name Thread Name Subject Posted
GUEST,Taliesn BS: What have the Jews ever done for us? (57* d) RE: BS: What have the Jews ever done for us? 26 Nov 02

"You see, this is exactly my point. By pointing fingers of blame at one religion after another, you just end up in a circle of vicious recrimination that gets nowhere."

Well ,to prevent this from cycling further to distorting what I actually said ( which would happen less if you merely applied the common courtesy of (quoting) my axtual words more instead of just reacting . I do so there "is" no misunderstanding ),can we please return to the *original* point that led this dialogue?

I responded to Tom Hamilton's post
"As one stupid British MP said as he was in Israel, he said to both Jews and Palestians, "Come on we should behave like Christains"
To which I responded :
"Stupid for "whom" said it ......but harldy *inaccurate* when you consider that Old Testament culture of an "eye for an eye" and "fierce identity of tribalism" codified......"
".....While often enough failed in practice by imperfect humans ,this can *not* take away from the *teachings* introduced *forgiveness* and the beatudes of which " Blessed are the Peacemakers*."

You took exception to that and we began what started out as a civilized debate which , having grown up in New York , iI know is a delicate task at best.
Then you're rebuttals become more exaggerated:
"You give the example of a single Israeli who behaved in a violent fashion for the sake of his religion."

My dear, the lone Isreali assasin of war hero Rabin was part of a very distinct and , what's more ,*widely reported upon by the Isreali press* as part of a growing *right wing* party movement which then opposing candidate Netanyahu fed red-meat rhetoric too and thus contributed to the *fundamentalist* elements of the Likuds that made it acceptable enough for someone to take the law into their own hands as if following a "higher law".
Point; this heinous political assasination of an opposing candidate did *not* happen in a vaccuum. If you bothered to read or see the interview with Rabin's *widow* on whom she held responsible for fomenting the fever that led to her war hero husband's death you'd know better of what you speak as well.
What's more it is the more peaceful Isreali's whom knew they had to challenge this rise of their right-wing and had a chance with Barak.
Well all know the criminal acts of the Palestinian "jihadists" which caused Sheron to be swept into power and it looks like his tactics will now sweep him out again.

"Saying that the state of Israel fairly represents Judaism is like saying the United States fairly represents Christianity."

For you to say that the State of Isreali does *not* represent Judaism when it was *created* to be *the* center of the Jewish world infused with the self-determination of self-government , is so abyssmally self-delusional as to make the credability of your argument derail.
Exhibit A:
"Then you claim that Jewish teachings and practice of peace don't count,..."

Excuse me ,but this *impression* of yours is patently false and if you had bothered to porduce the quote where I say this this putting false words in my post would've been avoided. But you preferred to just emotionally "react" to what you thought you were reading.
This is how rational debates degenerate into the name calling as you've already begun to do by impuning my opinion as being informed by Neo-Nazi propaganda which is damnably insulting to me personally.
"It sounds like you've been listening to the neo-Nazis that believe that all Jews are rich and in league with the devil. "

I have always found the hateful propaganda of far right wingnut Arian Nation and Neo-Nazi group wholey repugnant and degenrate in its using false words to promote false doctrine.
My Dad fought in the Euro-theatre of WWII to the noble cause of uttelry defeating the Nazi Germany's ideology and its attendent war machine and I was raised accordingly so you keep your creeping personal insults.
" To imply that the Jews really weren't oppressed during the middle ages in Europe is..."
I was not ,as you say "implying anything. What I said specifically said was:
"Well if they.....were so thoroughly oppressed fro centuries ,one wonders how they could've ever arisen to such prominence as to be "able" to be made a scapegoat of."

I well know enough Euro-history ( for a New York yank ) to have been very informed of the culture of Euro-oppression of the Jews as a "seprate people" ,but history itself proves that they all weren't *so* oppressed since many acheived positions of prominence in Proto-Euro societies after Europe *began* to become enough enlightened during the Rennaissance and "higher learning" grew to be souhgt after. To say otherwise is to deny the rightful claim to the advanced talents of the Jews that are a part of their history. You need a little more balance in your history learnin' as well.

My final point goes with this uninformed line of reasoning:
"By equating only the Old Testament with Jewish teaching, you are ignoring centuries of other Jewish religious texts; the idea that Judaism is all about an eye for an eye is a stereotype, nothing more."

Well tell that "just" to the Likud party whom use this rhetoric regularly as translaytions of that rhetoric is reported in little papers from the New York Times to the Washington Times
as well as C-Span broadcasts , with translation ,of actual Knesset floor debates. What's more I do *not* equate *only* the Old Testament with Jewish teaching, but I *do* point out how this part of Jewish teaching is resorted to among the Isreali *fundamantalists" whom are the driving force of the right-wing Likud whom have held sway over the policies of a "nuclear armmed" Isreal and we have the present state of hostilities
to show for it.
And before you go off on another pre-rant on piping up and acusing me of "totally ibnoring" the Palestinian incitements to violence ( didn't know "Infitada" ,"Hamas" ,and Palestinian Jihad" were to be equated by you as a part "Christian" culture with your remark about there being "Christian-Palestinians. I wonder how brave you would be to speak out when surrounded by a policy of fever-pitch hatred where you live surrounded by your militant neighbors )
Get real will you please.

Other than that here's hoping that the more enlightened souls
in *both* Faiths acheive ascendancy and demonstrate the better angels of their respective Faiths and tribal identities they draw from them.
Fair enough?
I pray for Peace.;-)

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