Hi, Raedwulf...I'm back from the canoe trip. Money is "not in endless supply"? Actually, money IS in endless supply,

No Hawk, it isn't. It just looks like it. More to the point, the people that "make" the new money aren't spending it on philanthropy… Allow me to redefine the term perhaps slightly better – there is only so much wealth in the world. In Germany of the depressed '30s, they used 10,000,000 Mark notes as wallpaper – lots of money, precious little wealth.

We can argue endlessly about how the economic system works (or, frankly, doesn't), but the fact still remains that there is only a finite amount of resources in the world, & only a finite amount of wealth. Would you sit on your front porch setting fire to $50 bills? Because this is the net effect of maintaining in prison criminals you hope will never be released! Would it not be better for any country, any society, if this money were spent in the ghettoes (of New York, LA, London, Manchester, wherever) ensuring that a few less people wind up in this evolutionary cul-de-sac?

{snip} It's an endless money tree for those who already have most of the money anyway...and most of the money ISN'T REAL!!!

Yes, & that little diatribe (which I don't necessarily disagree with) had nothing whatsoever to do with the subject under discussion!

Now, I'm not really suggesting that individuals on this forum value money over life,

Good.

I'm just making a provocative statement

Just a bit! *g*

in order to maybe get someone to look into the deeper implications of a decision to execute people "because it's cheaper than keeping them in jail". It seems like an almost unbelievably crass statement to make in favour of the death penalty to me.

That may be because, faced with such a statement, you will not look beneath the surface. I am not a knee jerk opinion. I have spent as much time establishing in my mind my p-o-v, as you have in yours. I do not base my arguments in morality, because morality is highly subjective and, therefore, highly suspect. Ethics are scarcely less so. Economics? No, I'm no money-grubbing mercenary either.

I prefer to be rational. I cannot find a reason for the maintenance of the "unworthy". Especially given the amount of 'luxury' they seem to expect as their right! The possibility of error (which is, so far, the only rational argument that I find acceptable) is, IMHO, by & large considerably outweighed by the probability of concrete conviction in the modern world.


It's downright embarrassing that anyone would say it. Are people really that worried about the piddly amount of tax they pay each year (individually, I mean)

No, I'm not. What bothers me is the amount of tax that society as a whole expends on the worthless that would ({cynic}I hope, rather than expect{/cynic}) be more usefully spent elsewhere.

Look, everyone pays taxes toward a lot of stuff that they don't personally agree with. You do. I do. It's inevitable. That's how the system works. It's the price one pays for living in an organized society that is doing many good things too.

Yep.

But to suggest that people should be executed to save you or some other person $5 a year or something like that (probably less) is just crass and shameful. It indicates shallow, knee-jerk thinking, as far as I'm concerned, rather than a real appreciation of what's actually happening on death row.

There again, what your reaction indicates to me is a "crass and shameful… shallow, knee-jerk" failure to appreciate what your 'lily-livered liberalism?' costs society. I'm not saying I'm right. However, your arguments, as presented so far, involve too much emotion, both defensive & offensive, for me to accept. In this, Hawk, you argue as though your beliefs decide your proof. This is suspect.

Show me that your beliefs are based upon your proofs!! I probably still won't agree ;), because I'm certain that my position is based upon my best rational foundation. Would you change your p-o-v? No, didn't think so! ;) But I demand proof, not opinion. I have a great deal of respect for the best of the anti-CP side. Most of them, though, (like most of the pro-CPers) couldn't argue their way out of a wet paper bag… And did I warn you I'm before, after, & beyond anything else, a cynic… ;)

But here's another interesting notion: What may be the best thing to do in one social situation may be the worst to do in another, so like I said, laying down infallible rules of right and wrong (a la Ten Commandments) is virtually impossible. What we humans actually do is constantly make the rules up as we go along, and revise them whenever conditions change or whenever we change. Everybody does it. Some claim not too. Their claims are dubious, to say the least.

Agreed! Especially to the latter half!!!

For the time being, given present conditions in North America, I would rather not see prisoners being executed. I don't think it serves any useful practical or moral purpose.

And, again, at the moment I also would rather not see prisoners being executed. The US State/Federal system of justice seems to me (an outsider), a far too subjective & inconsistent system of justice. I have read of cases, & wondered why it has taken 20-odd years to execute. I have read of cases & wondered why, after the passing of 20-odd years, the authorities still do not recognise the presence of doubt.

At the risk of being incredibly boring, I will say again "What does that prove? That your system is f***ed, nothing more, nothing less. Sort your system out..."