SRS: "Frames? You've got to be kidding. They're an annoyance above all others in web design and web browsing. Given the choice I always turn them off."   
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   So do I, mostly. Not because they're an annoyance - they're much harder for the inexperienced to design with (and also require more focussing of the grey matter to design correcty with - and I'm lazy), and also years ago, most browsers were not frames enabled. Sometimes though, being lazy, I find that the frames solution is the better elegant solution to a particluar task.



SRS: "and you're loading her down with bells and whistles that are meaningless"
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   in YOUR opinon.... Learning curves are often steep. Or are you one of those few magnificent musos who can pick up ANY instrument and play it superbly and never need to practice - although I play many different instruments, I have to practice - if I don't, my skill detoriates until I do some practice on any instrument I haven't played in a while.

It also took me a while of focusing on HTML again (since I don't do much web page writing these days at the moment) to get the knowledge frame back into mind to realise that what the nice beginner lady was trying to do was in violation of the HTML standard. A closed HTML expression/bucket/container in isolation will automatically do a carriage return in the browser to make the next bucket display on the next line. Simple, once it's stated in black and white, isn't it?

If you convince people that they don't need to worry about complicated things cause "life is just simple, maaan", then they become upset when complicated things in life don't work simply. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Fools know everything - spoken as Author of The Fooles Troupe.

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Bill D "Anything on a page which REQUIRES me to scroll sideways to read upsets me."
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   Precisely. I do so agree with with you. That is just as bad as designing a web page so that it does NOT fill larger screens. Nowhere did I say that I wanted the screens designed to work ONLY on larger screens, I said that it is a better design IF the pages are DESIGNED to BE CAPABLE of being read on larger screens, even larger screens than the designer normally uses. And I said that the Herald page annoys me BECAUSE I HAVE TO SCROLL DOWN. We're both annoyed about similar related things you see... :-)

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SRS: "but I am assuming that you're hotdogging on this thread."

Ahh! you see, when we ASS-U-ME something, we make an ASS of U and ME!

Now if I was a real hotdogger about HTML I might ASS-U-ME that you were trying to be nasty to me because you thought you knew all about HTML (and if you really did you would have come up with the correct answer to the problem before I did!) and were trying to put down someone you thought to be making threats to your competence in the field, and had ASS-U-MEd that I was a stupid ignorant git didn't know what I was talking about regarding HTML!

But I'm a nice guy, so I'll simply say that your assumption that I'm merely trying to grandstand on a subject that you didn't know the correct answer to immediately, is wrong.

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Sadly, we sometimes find out in life that some people DO know more than we think we do - I find that out every day, expecially here on Mudcat, which is why I like the place. But sometimes we also find that we DO know more than some others who think they know it all - ... ;-)

You see that is the problem with the "telling lies to children" school of education. It's OK to tell a child a simplified version of something for many reasons, including that we don't know the real answer ourself, and especially that a better answer requires that they need to understand other things which have to be explained to them first, but one should never try to convince the child (even the lesser intelligent ones) that the simple answer is the only REAL "correct" answer in that case. That way only breeds ignorance and stupidity (and Faith Based Religions!) - ask any good looking woman - the smart good looking ones know people are only treating them as stupid because EVERYBODY KNOWS ALL GOOD LOOKING WOMEN ARE STUPID! I know many highly intelligent good looking women.


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Bill D - those "teachers" were dickheads, unfortunately - they really didn't know as much as they thought they did - and they certainly didn't know how to train otherss, obviously because they had not been trained how to teach others - and what's more THEIR manager were obviously stupid for thinking that anyone without trining in how to train others were suitable to teach a subject to beginners! As you stated, Bill, what they were able to talk about what not relevant to what you wanted to learn at the time.

Bill, did anybody tell the two experts that they didn't have a clue what they were talking about, and could not see how it related to what they wanted to do with the equipment?

They were the wrong teachers for that group of students at that time. There is an Eastern saying - "When the student is ready to learn the teacher will appear" - which means that until the student is ready to learn something, nobody can teach them anyway.

The old saying about "those who know - do, those who don't - teach" means more than it seems.

My best teachers in high school were those who made it clear that they didn't have all the answers - there was this lump of content that they had to cover, and they didn't really understand it all, and would try to help as best they could especially on the parts they did understand, but occassionally there would be parts they did not understand enough to be able to explain to our satisfaction of understanding, and we would just have to take it on trust that if we wanted to past the exam, that we would have to remember these bits anyway. These teachers never tried to talk down to us or "tell lies to children".

The arseholes who tried to pretend they knew it all and were always putting down students who asked the intelligent questions that the teachers could obviously not understand (as it became clear to me in hindsight when I went on to higher levels myself!) were definitely the worst teachers.

Robin