Teribus, wishing to ask and answer all of his own questoons and thereby avoid having to consider the opinion of any other human being, wrote:

'OK Peg, to put it in a simpler more direct way

1. Prior to 911 had there been any terrorist attacks in the USA, were there any fatalities/injuries as a result of those attacks?

Yes there have been (WTC Bomb to name but one)'
--that is NOT what I asked. I asked if there hadspecifically been any terroprist attacks in the *two and a quarter years prior* to 9-11. That is the same time period you asked me to abide by, and I did. Fair is fair.



"2. Subsequent to 911 have there been any terrorist attacks in the USA, were there any fatalities/injuries as a result of those attacks?

No there has not. Have any been prevented? Yes - all well documented and reported."
--you continue to ignore the fine example I gave of the anthrax attacks.I maintain these are examples of terrorim. I don't know why you presume to try and twist my words to accomodate your rhetoric.


"3. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attacks of 911."
--yeah, and? When was this ever in question?


"4. As far as has been reported NOBODY, be it individual or organisation, homegrown, or foreign, has claimed responsibility for the anthrax incidents. But, incidentally, one thing "those paranoid imperialistic thugs who make up the Homeland Security office" did determine about those incidents was that they had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq, or Saddam Hussein, and that they did report."
--um, actually, PLENTY of people claimed responsibiity. So many, in fact, that it was impossible to sort out which confessions were erroneous ones.

You make me wish to laugh aloud when you say, first, no one has claimed responsibility for these attacks, and yet the gov'mint somehow still managed to PROVE there was no connection to Iraq or Hussein?

How can you say this without knowing who was responsible? how do you   know these attackes were not perpretarted by some person or persons living in the United States who claims sympathy with Hussein?
Answer: you don't.



"5. Measures taken to improve the level of security in the US? In addition to what has been discussed in this thread - Plenty.
- Tightening up of security worldwide, but with particular emphasis on airports and air travel."
--why do you feel the need to point this out/ it's painfully obvious.


"- Increase in personal awareness through advice and those alert notices you so readily dismiss as "scare-mongering".
--I still maintain these "alerts" are the very worst sort of fear-mongering; vague, objectless, hysterical and mysterious. "Just go about your routine but be aware the level of threat is very high." HUH???


"- Vastly improved co-operation between law enforcement agencies and intelligence organisations throughout the world."
--oh, yeah, I love the presence of a bunch of jack-booted thugs   armed with semi-automatic weapons in public places. I love knowing   that people can be detained randomly and indefinitely and with   no reason beig given or charge being brought against them. GOSH that makes me feel safe!


"- World-wide implementation of new IMO Code ISPS which checks cargoes, ports and shipping for all goods being shipped to US ports. For the vessels this code forms part of the ship's SOLAS certification, i.e. if it does not comply the ship is considered as unseaworthy."
--seems like a good idea. Why haven't they worked this hard to fight the dumbass and incompetent war on drugs which still allows tons of heroin and cocaine to slip undisturbed into this country's ports, year after year?



"6. As for, "if there are any "successful" terrorist attacks from here on in, your claim that America is now safer than before will be shown to be erroneous." What kind of fools logic is that?"
--you earlier made the point that the Homeland Security Office was SOLELY and DIRECTLY responsible for the lack of terrorist attacks on   U. S. soil (except for those people who died from the anthrax   terrorist acts) in the last two and a quarter years. So, you see, it's YOUR logic.


"Believe me Peg, there will be further attempted terrorist attacks and inevitably some will be successful, but those carrying out those attacks will have had to work a damn sight harder in order to succeed because of the measures being put into place now. Following your apparent preferred course of action subsequent to 911 I can think of at least 15 aircraft that would have been shot down or blown up."
--you do not state what my "preferred course of action" is, though; so what is it? I did not make any such statement, so it's shocking to me that you know what it is...
I do NOT agree it will be harder for these terrorists to attack; they will simply choose a different methodology: one that has not been thought through by the feds, one they have not prepared for.
An attempt to poison a municipal water supply, for example, would be laughably easy to carry out.
   

"7. As for you not saying that the present conditions under which live being the worst domestic terrorism you have ever encountered. Please explain - Peg 06 Jan 04 - 12:12 PM "I call this domestic terrorism of the worst sort."
--you will have to explain this better because you seem to have left out a necessary verb or pronoun or something.



"8. That you IYOP do not feel safer does not alter the reality that there are more measures, routines and practices in place, specifically geared for your protection from foreign attack than at anytime in the history of your country. They are not perfect, they are not ideal, they may very well be undesirable, but they are necessary, they are better than doing nothing and they are better than what was in place before - but most importantly they are not permanent."
--I do not agree. Simple as that. I do not believe them all   necessary, I find many of them highly undesirable, and I do NOT feel safer as a result.



"9. Your economy is far from "tanking", at the moment it is one of the most vibrant on the world scene."
--huh?
That is certainly news to me. I'd say we're vibrant compared to, say, Romania or Sierra Leone, but not compared to what we were several years ago. Before Bush.


"As for the alert code system, well there is absolutely no way to win on that as if the general public are advised on changes in alert status the administration is guilty (in your eyes) of scare-mongering, and if they don't they are guilty of keeping the people in the dark and denying them a choice. I prefer that alert code changes are announced it allows people to make up their own minds and might just act as a deterrent."
--ever read "The Boy Who Cried Wolf?" NO ONE is listening to these warnings anymore. Except employeess who are ordered to comply with them.


"10. Population of the USA, some 270-280 million people? How many, or what percentage of that number, have been arrested, detained and strip-searched without cause because of the application of additional powers under the banner of Homeland Security?"
--somewhere in the hundreds to thousands. We don't know exactly because some of these people have not been allowed to contact their famiies or have access to lawyers. I have now pointed this out several times.
Just so ya know, I am NOT including those citizens detained during airport security checks for what later turned out to be erroneous reasons...or those whose privacy has been violated by inwarrananted prying into their electronic phone, financial or library records.


"How many suspects are pulled in by the police in the normal performance of their duty (i.e. no Homeland Security connection) and are subjected to the same sort of treatment? I believe that if compared the numbers would not have suddenly escalated dramatically. I believe that the numbers would have hardly altered at all."
--are you saying that the plain ole police have not been asked to be more vigilant in their "normal performance" since 9-11? Cuz if you are, you're ignorant, naive, or stupid, or you think I am.


"11. The "fucking world" that I live in, to use your expression, is one that for the major part of the last thirty years has been subject to indiscriminate terrorist attacks funded and supported by the drunken plastic paddies, resident in your fair land, who all thought it was a bit of a joke - well they all know it's a bit different now. Welcome to the rest of the world."
--huh?
I do not know what or who is referred by this term, "drunken plastic   paddies." Sounds like a derogatory slur against the Irish, which is not appreciated by anyone here, I can tell you that.


"12. Irrespective of how much you like to whine and bemoan your lot. The fact is that you are still fortunate enough to reside in a country that is a damn sight freer than a hell of a lot of places on this globe. If you doubt that then just compare your rights and freedoms (in a country under attack), to those of an active member of the MDC in Zimbabwe (under Mugabe)"
--I am well aware of this comparison and have been for some time. I think it is hilarious the way militant types like you trot out this tired old chestnut. Why don't you just tell me "America: Love it or Leave it!"???
It is precisely BECAUSE I live in a country in which I am accustomed to such freedoms of expression and movement that I question and decry what my government is doing.
I'm surprised you haven't figured this one out.


"13. I "seem to relish the idea that this is the destiny of humanity: to be bound in chains and treated like dog turds." Where on earth do you get that idea from? Mind you it is a terrific example of a typical lefty-rant when all reason's lost - totally irrelevant and over dramatic."
--ah, yes, and your invoking life under Mugabe is NOT totally irrelevant and over (sic) dramatic? Give me a break.


"14. Regarding those being held at Guantanamo. Their status is illegal combatants or something like that."
--well, thanks so much for the exact description. I now see why you feel empowered to argue your points with such confidence.


"Even had they been classified as POW's as required under the terms of the Geneva Convention, which they couldn't be,
--why not? seems a bit too convenient, if you ask me.

"as the US did not declare war on Afghanistan, its Government, or its people."
--well, now, THAT's interestng. We sent troops there and bombed the living crap out of the place. That's not war??? It was a fucking invasion by a hostile nation towards a nation that had not only not made any hostile overture towards us, but a country that was at the time struggling to feed its own people. The fact that we did so without the legally-required participation of Congress does not mean it did not happen.


"Those prisoners would not be subject, or entitled to any rights under the U.S. legal system; legal counsel; access to foreign embassies or consulates. They would be entitled to visits and access to the IRC/RC."
--why not? If one sees the invasion of Afghanistan as an act of war, and I do, and so do millions of other Americans, these people are prisoners of war. And as such we are guilty of GROSS violation of several aricles of the Geneva Convention.


"15. "All prisoners are presumed innocent until proven guilty." That presumption applies to some codes relating to criminal law in some countries. As such, it has no bearing in this instance whatsoever."
--I repeat: seems a tad too convenient to me. The horror that is war frequently relies upon arbitrary acts of inhuanity.


"Those detained are part of an organisation who were indoctrinated and urged by their leaders to kill all Americans, irrespective of who, or what those Americans were."
--oh, so NOW you're telling me you know for a FACT that ALL these people are members of Al Qaeda??? You are even more full of it than I thought.


"These detainees will be interrogated and examined until they have revealed all they know and released when considered no longer likely to be a threat. Current reports are that about 150, of the 660-odd are about to be released shortly."
--I maintain these people have been detained long enough without access to legal representation or contact with their families. I think it's OUTRAGEOUS that it has taken TWO YEARS for this first round of prisoners to be interrgated and released. This is not the America I am proud of. Not anymore.