Thanks Ron, I was just about to add that including Rose in the Hall would ultimately be a statement of his entire career. As noted above, the standards for inclusion are one's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to his teams. Rose makes it on three, and looses it on three. His record, playing ability and contributions to his teams are monumental and cannot be argued. However, he has no integrity - he lied for 14 years about betting. His character is entirely suspect as he vehemently denies that he continues to have a betting problem even though he regularly gambles on horses and at least until a few years ago, at casinos. And who is to say he did not affect the game while he was betting? Managers make a thousand decisions, any one of which could vary the outcome of a game. There goes sportsmanship

And just an aside to the other issues raised, I firmly believe that if it is ever determined that a player achieved any milestone with the benefit of performance enhancing drugs, steriods, etc., they too should be banned from the HOF. There are a lot of honest Joes out there who deserve our admiration. If the fans would make a statement about drug and steroid use, the unions would not have to.

Freightdawg