Er, stigweard, go back and read the Observer article, then read the accounts of messers Keenan, MacCarthy and Waite. You will see the difference.

Re: The "Tipton Three" - Observer Article, two references

That their first interrogations by British investigators - from both MI5 and the SAS - took place in December 2001 and January 2002 when they were still being held at a detention camp in Afghanistan. Guns were held to their heads during their questioning in Afghanistan by American soldiers, and physical abuse and beatings were rife. At this point, after weeks of near starvation as prisoners of the Northern Alliance, all three men were close to death.

Ahmed described an interrogation session which took place before he left Afghanistan by an officer of MI5 and another official who said he was from the Foreign Office: 'All the time I was kneeling with a guy standing on the backs of my legs and another holding a gun to my head.

"physical abuse and beatings were rife" ? Sounds pretty general comment when compared to the accounts of those held in Beirut. Note Ahmed does not mention being beaten when he describes his interrogation by the "officer" from MI5. What he does describe, I could vouch for, pretty much the same sort of thing was done to us during escape and evasion exercises and during "Operation Awkward" exercises in training.

Terry Waite - Hezbollah Hostage:
I was chained to a wall by my hands and feet; beaten on the soles of my feet with cable; denied all my human rights, and contact with my family for five years, and given no access to the outside world.

Very specific, personal.

Brian Keenan - Hezbollah Hostage:
During his imprisonment Keenan was chained, blindfolded, beaten and assaulted.

Very specific, personal.

John McCarthy - Islamic Jihad Hostage:
Imprisoned for 1943 days, held in 13 different locations in and around Beirut. He was beaten, always chained to the wall of his cells and allowed no contact with the outside world.

Again very specific, personal.

With the case of the Beirut hostages they were kept chained-up as the norm, they were blindfolded for much of the time or kept in darkness as the norm and beaten for no reason whatsoever.

How much was known about Al-Qaeda prior to the overthrow of the Taliban in Afghanistan? Please don't confuse the issue by thinking that war is the opposite of peace - quite simply it isn't. When the 650 detainees found themselves in Guantanamo they were there for a reason. They had to be interrogated and evaluated, that takes time. The information gleaned, irrespective of the role the person being interrogated took in proceedings that led to his capture is valuable and can be used to save life.

Stigweard, you ask - "Does that mean they have no rights at all? That they deserve to have their rights taken away from them because a man with a gun says so?" The short answer to that is "Yes on both counts" and it has nothing whatsoever to do with justice.

MGOH,
"Colin Powells statement that "...we have discharged all of our obligations under the Geneva Convention to treat people in our custody, our detainees, in a very humanitarian way" just does not seem to square with the facts."

How many of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay have died in custody Kevin? Be interesting to find out whether or not they would have preferred to remain in Afghanistan as prisoners of the Northern Alliance - their incarceration would definitely have been shorter and their condition on release might not have been living - That's the bottom line Kevin, this is something that is being carried out in deadly earnest, under such circumstances it is best to remember that there are no rules - it's not a game.