Shame on you, Ake. To say the leaders of Islam want to bring down the western democracies is a generalisation too sweeping by far. As with any religion, different adherents interpret it in different ways. But I doubt if there's a case for saying Islam has more fundamentalist nutters than any other religion. You may have noticed that Shia leaders in Iraq were calling on Moqtada al Sadr (viewed by most Shia muslims as a young tearaway) to end his insurgency right from the outset.

The parallel that Amos draws with the Catholic church is a fair one, nad it should be remembered that popes were issuing encyclicals hostile to democracy right into the 20th century.

Little Hawk, re your 9.19pm post: you couldn't have said it better.

McG, to be fair to Kimmitt I think you may have misunderstood his reference to "Ali Babas". Either that, or I did. As I understood it, he was acknowledging that Iraqie were entitled to bear arms, so they could defend themselves against thieves, looters etc - or "Ali Babas", which is the term that Iraqis themselves use.